D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Micah Sweet]

Have you read them?

Running high levels a pain in every edition. I can do it but don't want to.

B/X or BECMI may be exception to that. Great for DM not so great for players though (to basic).

Which is why I believe that adding more player options to a B/X base in a measured, integrated way makes a great game.

 

[Horwath]

Well crap. Then I guess the multiple 5e campaigns I ran and played in that started at 3rd level and made it to high levels(including 20) didn't actually happen. Silly me for thinking that reality was real.

good for you.
I didn't say it was impossible.

but the thing is, the more sessions are in the campaign, the more chance that the campaign will brake.
It can be DM burnout, RL problems, just getting 5-6 people with free time at the same time and place, what not.

if you reduce number of sessions to level 20, there is more chance that you will get to level 20.

 

[Maxperson]

good for you.
I didn't say it was impossible.

but the thing is, the more sessions are in the campaign, the more chance that the campaign will brake.
It can be DM burnout, RL problems, just getting 5-6 people with free time at the same time and place, what not.

if you reduce number of sessions to level 20, there is more chance that you will get to level 20.

My campaigns last 12-15 months typically. Played weekly.

 

[Zardnaar]

Which is why I believe that adding more player options to a B/X base in a measured, integrated way makes a great game.

B/X with some AD&D classes,5E skills maybe micro feats. Something like that maybe. Ascending AC

 

[Zardnaar]

5E is the least offensive game of the WotC era in this regard IMO. Characters are generally simpler, the math is flatter, and monsters don't tend to be particularly complex.

I think it is a cop out to just say "it's too hard."

It's not worth the effort vs fun. PCs can easily steam roll anything you throw at them so it's ultimately boring. That starts around level 7/8 and gets worse say 13.

5.5 it's 5-7 as you get very powerful subclass features that didn't exist in 5.0.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Sorry I was meaning earlier editions.

If I'm running a high level campaign those books are still useful for mining.
Eg Labyrinth of Madness or various adventures in Dungeon.

I've got around 400-500 D&D products to draw on and 500-1000 odd adventures.

Labyrinth of Madness always came across as tough in a very unfair way.
Whereas Nightmare Keep (IIRC) was still tough, but fair.

 

[J-H]

All editions had this problem.

The issue with high level D&D is that only spells scales well after ~13th level or so.

The following non-caster classes/subclasses in 5e continue to scale excellently:
The Fighter, who at 20th level is a chainsaw capable of attacking minimum of 8 times two rounds in a row twice per short rest. Assuming even a basic magic weapon (+1d6), the fighter can do damage equal to a failed save against the 1/day meteor swarm with each set of attacks. Some subclasses can do substantially better, and with a level-appropriate magic weapon such as a vorpal sword, the Fighter can expect to probably land an instant kill somewhere in those two rounds.

The Zealot barbarian, who becomes immune to death by hit point loss at 14th level and acquires an almost unbeatable grapple check.

The monk, who can turn invisible and gain resistance to all damage except force at 18th level, making himself an excellent infiltrator and off-tank, while also being one of the three best classes in the game for saving throws (alongside paladin and artificer).

All the other classes except rogue have spellcasting (spellcasting creep is a different topic).

As another specific example, rogues are the best generalist skill users, but I'm finding that the Battlemaster may not be far behind. I'm running a Battlemaster war leader in a campaign right now. At level 7 with Expertise from a feat, his Persuasion check is 1d20+8, + 1d8 from a maneuver. At level 20 with a Charisma of only 14, he'd be at 1d20+14 + 1d12 for a persuasion check range of 16-46. I'm not sure any spellcaster except Bard can keep up with this, and there are at least 6 skills Battlemasters can do this for. Even the 8th level spell Glibness doesn't do anything other than set a high floor for what the spellcaster's lowest roll can be.

Not every class scales as well to 20 (ranger), but most classes in 5e have pretty good scaling features. Having run high level several times... the non-casters are fine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

B/X with some AD&D classes,5E skills maybe micro feats. Something like that maybe. Ascending AC

Except for the AC (which I agree is weird), you're basically describing ACKS II.

 

[Reynard]

Isn't B/X with extra steps just AD&D?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Isn't B/X with extra steps just AD&D?

Not really. The rule-base is different, and it depends on what those extra steps are in any case.