D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Retros_x]

The main reason is that most campaigns don't last long and most campaigns start at level 1 or 3. Because that is THE fantasy of D&D, from Zero to Hero. Seeing your character grow from a weak fighter to a mighty hero. Most people don't want to start at level 12. In theory almost everybody loves the idea to than grow the character from Tier 1 - Tier 4. But reality hits for most games that last that long.

Want to run a campaign where your enemies are dominated by humanoids like I do and you have to constantly reimagine monsters or create your own which not everyone is good at. Add in lack of module support, which I can understand.

I don't think any DM wanted to run a high level campaign, started to prep, saw that the MM ist not appropiate to their needs and thus cancelled the high level game or stopped the campaign early for this reason.

I think its the other way around - because most games never reach that high level the content support is weaker for high level. Which makes sense from a business perspective. Why would you spent lots of money in designing content that most players will never see.

 

[Minigiant]

The main reason is that most campaigns don't last long and most campaigns start at level 1 or 3. Because that is THE fantasy of D&D, from Zero to Hero. Seeing your character grow from a weak fighter to a mighty hero. Most people don't want to start at level 12. In theory almost everybody loves the idea to than grow the character from Tier 1 - Tier 4. But reality hits for most games that last that long.

The issue is that D&D wasn't designed for you to update you character sheet 20 times

You can go from level 1 to level 20 easily if you levelled up every 2-3 sessions.

Again the problem is D&D was always built on vibes and looks so the process of levelling and learning your PC was always a process except if you played the easiest Pre3e fighters.

• High level spells are too complex
• Hevel level casters have too many spell slots to manage
• High level casters have to many spell levels to manage
• High level martials either are too complex OR so simple groups make them complex
• Traditional D&D has too many items to manage
• The scope of play grows drastically with few guardrails at high levels
• The skill system is always an afterthought and breaks down at high levels

So once a group finishes a major arc, instead of grinding through the process, they start over with new ideas.

If D&D characters were like superheroes where you only get 1-4 superpowers and your stats grow fast on a easy to gauge track then you could go from fighting the local gang to the crime boss to the boss's benefactor to the head BBEG.

 

[Zardnaar]

The issue is that D&D wasn't designed for you to update you character sheet 20 times

You can go from level 1 to level 20 easily if you levelled up every 2-3 sessions.

Again the problem is D&D was always built on vibes and looks so the process of levelling and learning your PC was always a process except if you played the easiest Pre3e fighters.

• High level spells are too complex
• Hevel level casters have too many spell slots to manage
• High level casters have to many spell levels to manage
• High level martials either are too complex OR so simple groups make them complex
• Traditional D&D has too many items to manage
• The scope of play grows drastically with few guardrails at high levels
• The skill system is always an afterthought and breaks down at high levels

So once a group finishes a major arc, instead of grinding through the process, they start over with new ideas.

If D&D characters were like superheroes where you only get 1-4 superpowers and your stats grow fast on a easy to gauge track then you could go from fighting the local gang to the crime boss to the boss's benefactor to the head BBEG.

2-3 sessions is say 2.5. 50 session to hit level 20.

Probably over a year closer to 15 months assuming a 75% weekly rate.

Think it's logistics mostly. I've got a year long campaign atm. Wonder how many others here have.

 

[GrimCo]

I don't think any DM wanted to run a high level campaign, started to prep, saw that the MM ist not appropiate to their needs and thus cancelled the high level game or stopped the campaign early for this reason.

I did just that. I had idea of GoT inspired campaign that would start PCs at level 10 and go to levels 15-17. When i say GoT inspired - it meant humanoids only in the world, no undead, monstrosities, abberations, outsiders or even dragons. Basically only medium sized human or human like races ( no dragon born ether ). Mm has next to nothing ready to use out of the box, so i had to more or less make all the opponents from scratch ( and monster creation rules are not the best). At low levels, i can eyeball encounters more or less. On higher levels, not so much. So i had to actually do lot's of work to pull that campaign off. I ditched idea and lower starting level at 5 and ran it to level 11. Decent amount of out of box human or human ish options out of box.

 

[Retros_x]

• High level spells are too complex
• Hevel level casters have too many spell slots to manage
• High level casters have to many spell levels to manage
• High level martials either are too complex OR so simple groups make them complex
• Traditional D&D has too many items to manage
• The scope of play grows drastically with few guardrails at high levels
• The skill system is always an afterthought and breaks down at high levels

These are fair critique points of high level play but I've never seen a campaign stop in high level because of that. Usually the grow happens so slow that most players and DMs if they have a bit experience under their belt have no problem to manage spells and abilities. It was at least in my experience always table-issues or the desire to start with fresh characters because campaigns are just too long.

But when you would level up fast like you suggest its too fast. Like if you would go from ratcatcher to semigod in 40 sessions - for many that is too fast paced.

I think its the game promise (epic detailed hero journey from zero to hero) mismatches with table reality. And its quite rare that a table is willing to sacrifice some of the promise and start already in third or fourth tier of play.

If D&D characters were like superheroes where you only get 1-4 superpowers and your stats grow fast on a easy to gauge track

I don't know if you heard about legends in the mist, the new narrative focused TTRPG by the city of mist creators. It sounds a bit like what you describe here. Maybe this will be a system that will be better able to make this hero journey playable.

 

[Retros_x]

I did just that. I had idea of GoT inspired campaign that would start PCs at level 10 and go to levels 15-17. When i say GoT inspired - it meant humanoids only in the world, no undead, monstrosities, abberations, outsiders or even dragons.

Ok fair, but GoT characters don't feel like level 10 PCs at all. Sounds for me like a genre mismatch.

 

[GrimCo]

Ok fair, but GoT characters don't feel like level 10 PCs at all. Sounds for me like a genre mismatch.

I was more inspired by the setting itself. I had old 3e GoT ( no, won't run 3.x ever again), Jamie was lvl 15, Ned was 9, plus some levels of Noble on both of them ( it had special subsystem that noble class used). Sandor was F10/Rog3 and Gregor was F18/Barb2.

But sure, i agree, 5e doesn't do great with high level low fantasy, although it kind-a should, since encounters are based around no magic items used.

 

[Gilladian]

Seems like it's missing the main option; the game doesn't scale well and is too tedious to enjoy at that level, even if you want to.

Exactly. By about 9th level things are hard, and by 12th it is fairly crazy. I just won’t go higher. But also, I prefer stories that are less about the abilities and powers of the Pcs and monsters, and more about the characters and situations and choices.

 

[Minigiant]

But sure, i agree, 5e doesn't do great with high level low fantasy, although it kind-a should, since encounters are based around no magic items used

The problem is that was a "lie"

You don't need magic items for the math.
You need magic items for the fun and utility.

Kinda like eating food without seasoning. You don't need it but...

 

[AlViking]

The main reason is that most campaigns don't last long and most campaigns start at level 1 or 3. Because that is THE fantasy of D&D, from Zero to Hero. Seeing your character grow from a weak fighter to a mighty hero. Most people don't want to start at level 12. In theory almost everybody loves the idea to than grow the character from Tier 1 - Tier 4. But reality hits for most games that last that long.



I don't think any DM wanted to run a high level campaign, started to prep, saw that the MM ist not appropiate to their needs and thus cancelled the high level game or stopped the campaign early for this reason.

I think its the other way around - because most games never reach that high level the content support is weaker for high level. Which makes sense from a business perspective. Why would you spent lots of money in designing content that most players will never see.

It is more work to run high level campaign for many reasons not having a variety of high level opponents is just one of them. I make custom monsters on a regular basis anyway but it does get annoying to do it constantly. It's also boring for every game to be based on a fiendish invasion. As someone said very early on it's a chicken and the egg issue. Because there's a lack of support few people play. Because few people play there's lack of support.

Better guidance for starting characters at higher levels could help but that's not what a lot of people want out of the game from a story perspective and understanding what works for a higher level character from a mechanical rules point of view can be difficult as well.