D&D General Why Do People Hate Gnomes?

[MGibster]

I think the best possible rebuttal to "Because I don't like them," is ...

"Well, that's impossible. I am a brain in vat and you (along with everyone else) is just a projection made by me. Since I like them, it follows that you do as well since you are me."

And that's why you're not invited to our parties anymore.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Apologies if my responses ruined anyone's blood pressure. If I sit back and think about it carefully, I don't truly hate gnomes any more than I hate any of the other Dwarf subraces.

Do you think I'm angry? No, I'm not angry. For most of this thread, I've just been confused. I mean, the core premise of the thread is that I'm confused about why people hate them so much more often than other races. I'm just kind of baffled why gnomes of all races are the ones that get mocked most commonly on the internet. More than Kender, more than Kenku, more than Grung, more than anything else. And I'm baffled when people give reasons why they hate them that are applicable to basically every other race in the game or just aren't accurate in the first place.

"But I can prove that they aren't Dwarves!" someone might say, as if doing so would invalidate my opinion, and somehow improve my disposition. They would then present the Player's Handbook as evidence, the same PHB that I have already read, already understood, and already deemed insufficient to change my mind. But to my mind, if gnomes aren't dwarves--if they lose that connection to the game lore that I grew up with--they lose the only thing that connects them to the game in my mind. They leave the game entirely.

I don't care if you think gnomes should be a dwarf subrace, or halfling subrace, or elf subrace, or anything else. Why would I? Has anyone tried to prove in this thread that they aren't dwarves? I mean, in the other gnome thread, a lot of people (including me) have even admitted that the only reason they're not elves/dwarves (like Snow White's Dwarves or Santa's Elves) is that D&D uses Tolkien's versions of those races and Gnomes were created to fill the niche ignored by Tolkien's Elves/Dwarves.

I don't like that D&D's races are as convoluted and redundant as they are any more than you do. I just like Gnomes. I don't care if Gnomes are called Dwarves or Elves or Halflings or anything else. So long as they're playable in one form or the other, I'd be happy. The same applies to other races. I don't care if Halflings just become a subtype of Humans. I would actually like it if Kenku, Owlin, and Aarakocra were all combined into one "Birdfolk" race with 3 different subraces with different lore. In my homebrew setting, I have combined Gnomes and Halflings because I can see their redundancies. I think Halflings are boring, so combining them with Gnomes to make them more interesting is a win in my book.

So, my confusion continues. Apparently, you think people in this thread that like gnomes are angry at the people that dislike them*. On the contrary (at least for me, I obviously can't speak for other people that like Gnomes). I like Gnomes more than just about any other official race in the game (except Warforged), and I would be perfectly fine with them being absorbed by another race if they're too similar. So long as there's something similar enough to capture the joy of playing a Gnome.

This thread is just my confusion about why Gnomes are hated/mocked so commonly. Not me trying to convince anyone else that they're wrong for hating gnomes, trying to get others to like them, or keep them a separate race from Halflings/Elves/Dwarves.

* I know that this is true in a lot of other cases, where people have debated for hundreds of pages about why their favorite race absolutely has to be a separate race mechanically and culturally from another race that is really similar. And, honestly, that's kind of depressing/baffling to me. I'm anti-redundancy. If something is redundant with something else, I'd way rather combine it with that thing than fight to have them be separate. This applies even if I really, really love the thing that is redundant with something else.

 

[MGibster]

I think the gnome hate is basically mostly just a meme at this point. It probably is at least partly fuelled by actual dissatisfaction people have with the gnomes though.

I've never hard a hard time with a player choosing gnome as their race. In my experience, it really doesn't matter what race a player character is. Other than ability scores, that artficer could be a dragonborn, elf, human, or gnome and it isn't going to make any difference to how the game is played. Maybe D&D races weren't originally designed to be bland, but they're pretty boring today.

 

[Hussar]

Gnomes have literally no source material in the folklore/pop culture"). Which can all be easily disproven.

Really? Examples please. Of D&D style gnomes in pop culture that people have actually read or heard about. Sorry, some Middle Ages that no one outside of folklore professors has even heard of don't count.

Because, from where I'm standing, gnomes have zero presense. No major elements in most settings (Eberron and Krynn being exceptions), no major presence in genre fiction - can you name 3 gnomes in a fantasy story written in the last 50 years that wasn't D&D Branded?

So, I don't think it can be "easily" disproven.

What can be proven is that gnomes have never been very popular, barely appear anywhere in the game, and are largely a vestigial hang on only included because they happened to appear in the 1e PHB.

I mean, heck, you brought up that other thread about Halflings - and my argument here is the same as it was there. If something in the game doesn't actually get used, or is only barely used, it's time to eject it in favor of something else that actually DOES get used.

Gnomes and Halflings are the Polearms Table of 5e. Sure, it's interesting. Sure, it's got some historical ties, but, at the end of the day, the game is a lot better for ejecting 99% of the polearms and rolling them up into two or three weapons.

Sorry, but, I'd much rather see D&D actually evolve to address what people actually want - hey, we lost gnomes for an edition and got Dragonborn -one of the most popular races in the game - instead of catering to a tiny slice of people who can still have what they want - you can include the race stats for anything in the Monster Manual, it's not that hard.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And that's why you're not invited to our parties anymore.

HA!

You mean ... that's why I don't invite me to my parties anymore!

It's probably for the best; I'm a terrible conversationalist.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And there it is. All criticism is swept aside with the blanket, “oh you just don’t like them”.

Okay. Name three classic adventures that feature gnomes. Name three classic fantasy stories with gnomes as central characters.

Gnomes have just never really been very popular or attracted any real interest by the hobby or the genre.

So only things written before 1990 count?

Because Cornie Fizzlesprocket is AMAZING, but the series she is a part of wasn't written til 2018 (Everybody Loves Large Chests by Neven Iliev). Bandit Keynes is another truly awesome gnomish character. But her story wasn't written til 2016 (Gilded Age by T Campbell & Flo Kahn)

Artemis Fowl features gnomes. Still too early to be "classic"

At least I can give you the Nome King, because despite the fact I was introduced to the Nomes of Oz in the series Wearing the Cape, the original Oz books were written in the early 1900's.

Dark Profit Saga by J. Zachary Pike? Too early. Can't count that.

Gnomesaga by Kenny Soward? 2014 doesn't count.

Teresa Edgerton's Goblin Moon and Gnome Engine? Those were 1991, are those "classical" enough? Probably not

See, this is the problem. It is trivial to find gnome characters. I haven't even touched World of Warcraft's gnomes at all, and that is what? 8 series I just named that feature gnomes? But it is all after 1990, so it doesn't count. After all, people can write all the fantasy fiction they want about gnomes, but since they didn't do it in the 80's, it doesn't matter.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Because Cornie Fizzlesprocket is AMAZING, but the series she is a part of wasn't written til 2018 (Everybody Loves Large Chests by Neven Iliev).

Wait.... there is a series called Everybody Loves Large Chests?

And the first book is called ... Morningwood?

And the tag line is .... Large chests are said to encompass all manner of hopes and dreams. Men covet them. Women envy them. But one fact holds true - everyone wants to get their hands on some big ones.

WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME THIS? This practically reads like a post I almost wrote ... wait ... is Neven Iliev another one of my pseudonyms? It is so hard being a brain in a vat.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Really? Examples please. Of D&D style gnomes in pop culture that people have actually read or heard about. Sorry, some Middle Ages that no one outside of folklore professors has even heard of don't count.

Sorry, no. I'm not going to engage with this premise because it's inherently faulty. I did not say that D&D's exact version/style of gnomes is present in folklore or pop culture. Just that there are obvious folklore creatures that are very similar to major aspects of D&D's version of Gnomes.

I will give you some examples of creatures that are very similar, though.

Santa's Elves are very, very similar in many ways to Rock Gnomes. They're short, pointy-eared, kind-hearted tinkerers/inventors. I'm not claiming that they're exactly the same, just that there are clear similarities between the two. Sure, they're not named "Gnomes", but that's irrelevant to the fact that they're quite similar creatures.

Same with Snow White's Seven Dwarves. Those are way closer to D&D's Gnomes than its Dwarves (mostly similar to Svirfneblin, actually, as they specifically mine for gems).

And, yes, World of Warcraft's Gnomes almost definitely came from D&D via Dragonlance, but they're still part of a popular non-D&D franchise and quite similar to D&D Gnomes. They've been around long enough to be fairly well-known.

I mean, heck, you brought up that other thread about Halflings - and my argument here is the same as it was there. If something in the game doesn't actually get used, or is only barely used, it's time to eject it in favor of something else that actually DOES get used.

Gnomes and Halflings are the Polearms Table of 5e. Sure, it's interesting. Sure, it's got some historical ties, but, at the end of the day, the game is a lot better for ejecting 99% of the polearms and rolling them up into two or three weapons.

Sorry, but, I'd much rather see D&D actually evolve to address what people actually want - hey, we lost gnomes for an edition and got Dragonborn -one of the most popular races in the game - instead of catering to a tiny slice of people who can still have what they want - you can include the race stats for anything in the Monster Manual, it's not that hard.

I do not disagree with you here. I do see that halflings and gnomes are probably too similar to be distinct races. I do not care if Gnomes are a separate race, so long as there is some option to play something similar to them. I don't care if they're combined with Halflings, Elves, or Dwarves, as all of them have huge similarities with at least one Gnome subrace. I really, really like Gnomes, but I am not so protective of them that I want to avoid them being folded into another race. I'd only be upset if they were completely dropped from the game. So long as there are guidelines to play a gnome (or something similar enough), I'd be perfectly fine with it. I'm as annoyed by redundant races as you are.

I can see why people don't like Gnomes being redundant/overlapping with other races. I like them even though I largely agree. And lots of people like other races that are mostly redundant (you remember the Halfling thread), to the extent that they will fight online for 200 pages arguing why they should be distinct races. I am not one of those people and I would be 100% fine with all of their most important traits being combined with another race.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Wait.... there is a series called Everybody Loves Large Chests?

And the first book is called ... Morningwood?

And the tag line is .... Large chests are said to encompass all manner of hopes and dreams. Men covet them. Women envy them. But one fact holds true - everyone wants to get their hands on some big ones.

WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME THIS? This practically reads like a post I almost wrote ... wait ... is Neven Iliev another one of my pseudonyms? It is so hard being a brain in a vat.

It is legit an amazing series with some awesome lore.

The mythology and cosmology of the setting is one of my favorites.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

1. Most people understand gnomes from two sources- first, garden gnomes. Garden gnomes are kind of a meme-able pop culture joke. Second? Underwear gnomes (either the original South Park episode or the internet memes with "3. PROFIT!!!!"). So there is already this "joke-y" version of gnomes floating around.

Yeah, garden gnomes being a source of D&D communities mocking gnomes kind of makes sense. But, also, why don't people mock Elves for the Elf on a Shelf? Pretty similar concepts, and gnomes are the only ones getting made fun of.

2. It's acceptable to hate on gnomes ... provided that it's not a real and serious hate. This can be confusing for some, but I will simplify- there are people that actually HATE (as in ... really hate) the idea of tieflings, or Dragonborn, or whatever. That type of humor is ... well, mean.

Yeah, again, this thread was just to figure out why that "joking hatred" of them exists in the first place.

I agree that seriously mocking a race and saying it shouldn't be in D&D is mean. And even if you are just joking, there are probably people that will take offense to it. (I know people before have complained about you joke-mocking elves and bards.)

3. Finally, Gnomes are the Nickleback of D&D. Never made it as a wise man It's culturally acceptable to hate on gnomes. I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing Is it because gnomes are also from the fictional country of Canada Tired of livin' like a blind man I don't think so. I'm sick of sight without a sense of feeling But it's totally fine to hate on Nickelback, while realizing that they make so very much money. And this is how you remind me Money? So is this really the gnomes master plan? Is this how they PROFIT!!!!

Or did I just write a very long post to get that song stuck in your head?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have never listened to any of Nickelback's songs. (I'm only 20 years old, so most of your pop culture song references are lost on me.)