Why do RPGs have rules?

hawkeyefan

Legend
I think we're at an impasse here. You're reverting to (B) because you think (A) is impossible, and I have nothing to say about (B) beyond the obvious.

You're looking for addition, I'm telling you it's subtraction. You're still looking for addition. [helpless shrug] Sorry I can't be of more use to you at this time.

Edit: maybe you could explain why you're still looking for addition?

I don’t know if I’d say for certain that setting aside any and all meta-concerns is impossible. It seems so to me, but my focus generally isn’t about sim, so I’m curious why people think it’s not. So far, I don’t really see it. The subsequent pages all talk about fairness, challenge rating, player skill, and good/bad faith GMing,.. so I hope you can see why I’m not convinced.

Your comments about answering the question “what if…?” is another example of something I don’t see as unique to simulation. It seems very akin to plausibility. It’s certainly an interesting thought, and something I often consider… so I think it’s relevant. But I’m pretty unconcerned about simulation when I GM, so it doesn’t seem strongly related to a sim mindset.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
To me, this also relates to the notion of simulation = GM extrapolates what they regard as plausible from both the revealed and the secret fiction. The GM knows whether or not the various possibilities I've mentioned are part of their notes. The players don't. So from the players' point of view, just about any outcome could be a manifestation of a "simulation".
"Extrapolates" seems to be doing a lot of work there. Can you say more about what you mean by that word? (I know what I would mean by it, but I suspect you will want to unpack it in a way that avoids any possibility of internal models or imagined causality.)
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I don’t know if I’d say for certain that setting aside any and all meta-concerns is impossible. It seems so to me, but my focus generally isn’t about sim, so I’m curious why people think it’s not. So far, I don’t really see it. The subsequent pages all talk about fairness, challenge rating, player skill, and good/bad faith GMing,.. so I hope you can see why I’m not convinced.
The digression into the possibility of player skill introduced drift.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I am far less familiar with RE etc al than you are, but it seems almost like this whole immersionist/high plausibility 'feels real' is more agenda and things like purist-for-system seem more like ways to get it (technique/approach). RE never claimed to have exhaustively cataloged all kinds of 'S' so maybe there's an agenda that isn't mapped here? Or was his approach to just label these as individual genres and lump them within genre sim?
Well, RE puts it this way: purist-for-system prioritises system over setting, character and situation. And colour and system are closely related in this sort of play (he mentions the "engineering textbook" flavour of GURPS; I'd mention Rolemaster crit tables and, to a lesser extent, spell list naming conventions).

On the other hand, what he calls "high concept sim" prioritises one or two of setting, character and situation, then mixes in the desired colour, and puts system last - because (as per my posts in the recent pages of this thread) system in this sort of play is flexible/malleable in the hands of the GM, whose job it is to narrate outcomes (like the bear) the will maintain the desired sense of setting, character or situation.

The ethos of Traveller, with its relatively detailed rules for generating animal encounter tables that tell us what life is like on the world in question, is purist-for-system. The ethos of AD&D from the mid-80s, with its instruction to the GM to choose or set aside the random encounter result if another outcome would suit your game better, is high concept.

In my posts, I've been saying that purist-for-system produces a type of simulationist experience for the whole table - because the GM as well as the players gets to see what comes from the application of the system during play. (Imagine, say, a Classic Traveller free trader game that is driven primarily just by the GM rolling on the various tables to produce worlds, cargoes, random encounters with reactions determined on the reaction table, etc.) There are two main risks in this sort of play, in my experience: (i) the mechanics break down as the fiction strays outside of system tolerances - this obliges the group to ad hoc things, or rejig their mechanics on the fly; (ii) play is (or becomes) boring, because the pleasure of seeing what sort of world the mechanics give rise to wears off (if it was ever there).

Whereas "high concept" produces one experience for the players - they get to experience the "cosmos in action" as narrated by the GM - but a different one for the GM, who has to make up the cosmos and so is not experiencing it in action. And this is where I have hit something of an impasse in this thread, as I am wondering what the principles/considerations/rubrics are that govern the GM's decisions about "what to say next" and am having some trouble identifying them. "Say a plausible thing" doesn't seem prescriptive enough to actually constrain decision-making, and is also part-and-parcel of all non-Toon RPGing. "Have no metagame agenda" seems to be belied by the idea that CR guidelines etc are something the GM should have regard to. So I'm a bit stumped.
 

Pedantic

Legend
I don’t know if I’d say for certain that setting aside any and all meta-concerns is impossible. It seems so to me, but my focus generally isn’t about sim, so I’m curious why people think it’s not. So far, I don’t really see it. The subsequent pages all talk about fairness, challenge rating, player skill, and good/bad faith GMing,.. so I hope you can see why I’m not convinced.

Your comments about answering the question “what if…?” is another example of something I don’t see as unique to simulation. It seems very akin to plausibility. It’s certainly an interesting thought, and something I often consider… so I think it’s relevant. But I’m pretty unconcerned about simulation when I GM, so it doesn’t seem strongly related to a sim mindset.
To be fair, I think we're having two forking discussions here. The question of game/skill is not necessarily related to the question of simulation. I'm generally happy to compromise on sim priorities to present a more navigable gamestate. I've said before that the primary difference between PC and NPC adventurers is that the former are significantly more likely to have encounters in a level-appropriate order.

To your specific concern though, I don't think there's any real need for further special sauce, @FormerlyHemlock's "absent meta-game concerns" can tolerate a few "except for these meta-game concerns" and still produce distinct results.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why is my imagining a lightning bolt blasting a house in two, which my two players accepted without query in the course of play, not a "crude, low quality model"?
Model of what? A fantasy lightning bolt? That doesn't simulate anything in a realistic(not a mirror of reality) manner.
Upthread I (and some others) understood @Imaro, @Maxperson, perhaps @clearstream and maybe (?) @FormerlyHemlock to say that simulationist play occurs when the GM extrapolates the fiction in a way that they think is plausible and that is accepted as realistic/verisimilitudinous by the players. If that understanding is correct, why is my example of play not a simulation? If that understanding is mistaken, then what is the correct understanding?
There's the added factor that it also be an attempt to simulate something that could occur here in the real world or come from such an occurrence. So while throwing a lightning bolt from your fingers after chanting some words isn't a simulation of anything, the wizard doing so in revenge for his brother's execution after the group caught and turned him over to the authorities would be. The latter being a simulation of how one might respond to a brother being caught and executed. Seeking revenge after something like that could happen here in the real world and nobody would bat an eyelash.
 


pemerton

Legend
Yeah, this is essentially what we did when I ran core 1977 CT. I generated the Home World and the PCs followed the core book trading, patron, and encounter rules, etc verbatim as they wandered the subsectors.
This is the purist-for-system ethos in Traveller.

Up to a point it does work, but of course the setting gains details over time, and we had to make rules tweaks and add stuff to make new things happen. That and we ran into stuff like the lack of any system for on-planet stuff.

What Traveller lacks mostly though is some way to really drive a story aside from needing money.
And this is where Traveller benefits from being played not as purist-for-sim, but as proto-PbtA! (Using the PC gen rules as the starting point, and intersecting them with world-gen rules and patron gen to make a "first session" happen, AW/DW-style.)
 

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