D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

Well it should.

Me and my 3-5 friends are sneaking into an orc infested hideout. You as the game should not be removing thedefault assumption of government because we need to know who is paying us and how much they might pay us in the future.

The game doesn't make that assumption as default or otherwise. That's what I was saying. The game doesn't go any further than King > Duke. It doesn't get into taxes, levies, etc. YOU can do that for YOUR game, but that's detail that your group is adding for itself.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, but who cares where pepper grows vs. lettuce. Cactus in tundra is not equivalent.

Um... actually it is. In fact, it is more important to get right.

Peppercorn plants are a tropical plant. They cannot survive in temperate climates. This drives trade routes. The spice trade was one of the biggest factors in international relationships in human history.

You want it to grow wherever just because, well, cacti are a desert plant, can't survive in a place as cold as the tundra. Why not? It doesn't even effect the shape of the world. It is just more obvious because it is an iconic plant unlike the peppercorn plant that helped shape human history.

D&D doesn't care. If you do, homebrew your game to mirror Earth. I'm not going to bother.

So, like I said. Tundra cacti. Ivy plants growing in the desert. Fur Trees in the rainforest. Who cares about things making sense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Tell that to D&D. Your distinction doesn't exist within the game. Halfling generally do not sell, but do like to trade. End of story.

You just insist on making DnD more absurd. I don't know why. Trade is trade. Whether you trade for coins or not doesn't even factor into it.

And especially since, this is now imminently confusing. Halflings are more than willing to make goods to trade for other goods, but they don't make goods to sell for money so they can buy other goods? Do they have a cultural hatred of coin now? Why is this a distinction that needs to exist?

Under 100 people don't need to constantly send out for stuff. They aren't generally making disposable things.

Except for all the things they need to eat that they need to trade for.

Also, just going to post this bit from a wikipedia search for Market Days "Braudel and Reynold have made a systematic study of European market towns between the 13th and 15th century. Their investigation shows that in regional districts markets were held once or twice a week while daily markets were common in larger cities."

So, in the medieval ages, in europe, going to a market was a weekly event. They didn't make disposable things either, and the medieval ages are the time period we are most closely emulating.

Oh, but I'm supposed to stop bringing things like this up, because they are about the real world.

Said that several pages ago. It just won't be large and will be troublesome for even rangers to find.

You need to show proof of that, because I grew up in the countryside and when I went into the forest, through the field once a month or even slightly more often, trails never appeared.

You couldn't tell the difference between your normal route and a different direction? The grass didn't get thinner in one spot, bushes didn't grow there?

Also, yeah, Rangers are going to have a hard time finding it. Your typical Ranger is going to have what? A +4 or +5 to survival for tracking? So a passive 14 to 15? If they travel at a slow pace, they get an additional +5 for a passive 19 to 20.

DC 15 is the check for navigating the open seas, with an overcast sky (so no stars) with no land in sight. It is the literally the DC for finding your way in a blank space with nothing to guide you. Finding a these tracks are supposed to be harder than that? Heck, cutting through a jungle with no paths and finding your destination is also DC 15.

Oh, and before I get accused of making this stuff up because it must be setting specific, DMG page 112.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Two things amaze me.

1. This discussion has gone on for 52 pages.

2. It's all about halflings, while everyone knows that it's gnomes that are the stupid race we should get rid of.

 

[Chaosmancer]

D&D is not, not has it ever been a realistic Earth simulator. Literally the ONLY reason halflings couldn't grow the spices they would need on their own farms is if the GM decided that they couldn't. There is no "lore" laying out irrigation requirements , crop availability, or any of that garbage you are trotting out.

Believable environments isn't garbage.

If you are in the desert and someone serves you sushi, you are going to have a WTF moment. IF you are in the Tundra, eating fresh strawberries, there might be something weird going on. I mean, how are you supposed to know what is strange if you don't establish what is normal?

Know how I know that halflings grow everything they need on a self sufficient farm to be excellent creators of foodstuffs? Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM. Absolutely zero problem.

Except for the breakdown of environmental zones and the death of the spice trade which fueled much of merchant wealth in the medieval world. What are those merchant princes transporting if any valuable spice can be grown in their backyard with a little be of handwaving?

Perhaps you can tell me about how dwarves can't have a mining subculture because the sludge and runoff from the ore processing would poison their groundwater and they would all die of radon poisoning.

Might be a good reason why Dwarves have resistance to poison. Also, could explain why they prefer to drink alcoholic beverages, since the water tends to be poisonous.

They are also master smiths and stone crafters, so perhaps they are very careful with where the runoff goes, making sure that their water supplies remain untainted.

Maybe about how tritons all suffer from severe scurvy because they lack some vitamin C in the form of citrus fruits in their diet?

Tritons are fish people who live in depths that would cause you to be crushed like a tin foil boat. Assuming they need Vitamin C when whales, dolphins, fish, sharks, and octupi don't is rather silly.

Or perhaps in your world elves suffer mass amounts of depression and mental illness because they live lifespans of 800 years and all their friends of other races are doomed to die around them and their mindnumbingly boring existence of spending 200 years learning to weave baskets.

You mean the ennui that is literally the biggest trope about elves ever? It was literally what was killing their race off in Tolkien?

Yeah, can't imagine that being a thing in fantasy worlds, just the biggest elf trope ever written.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Two things amaze me.

1. This discussion has gone on for 52 pages.

2. It's all about halflings, while everyone knows that it's gnomes that are the stupid race we should get rid of.

Actually, as I have said quite a few times, I really like gnomes a lot. They add a lot of fun ideas into the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Um... actually it is. In fact, it is more important to get right.

Peppercorn plants are a tropical plant. They cannot survive in temperate climates. This drives trade routes. The spice trade was one of the biggest factors in international relationships in human history.

You want it to grow wherever just because, well, cacti are a desert plant, can't survive in a place as cold as the tundra. Why not? It doesn't even effect the shape of the world. It is just more obvious because it is an iconic plant unlike the peppercorn plant that helped shape human history.

Then feel free to homebrew that level of realism into your game. D&D doesn't care about that.

 

[Maxperson]

You just insist on making DnD more absurd. I don't know why. Trade is trade. Whether you trade for coins or not doesn't even factor into it.

So now you're accusing me of having written Mordenkainen's. Awesome.

And especially since, this is now imminently confusing. Halflings are more than willing to make goods to trade for other goods, but they don't make goods to sell for money so they can buy other goods? Do they have a cultural hatred of coin now? Why is this a distinction that needs to exist?

And yet another Strawman from your straw army. I never said that.

Also, just going to post this bit from a wikipedia search for Market Days "Braudel and Reynold have made a systematic study of European market towns between the 13th and 15th century. Their investigation shows that in regional districts markets were held once or twice a week while daily markets were common in larger cities."

So, in the medieval ages, in europe, going to a market was a weekly event. They didn't make disposable things either, and the medieval ages are the time period we are most closely emulating.

Oh, but I'm supposed to stop bringing things like this up, because they are about the real world.

If you have to go to the real world to "win" this, you've lost.

You couldn't tell the difference between your normal route and a different direction? The grass didn't get thinner in one spot, bushes didn't grow there?

Nope.

Also, yeah, Rangers are going to have a hard time finding it. Your typical Ranger is going to have what? A +4 or +5 to survival for tracking? So a passive 14 to 15? If they travel at a slow pace, they get an additional +5 for a passive 19 to 20.

DC 15 is the check for navigating the open seas, with an overcast sky (so no stars) with no land in sight. It is the literally the DC for finding your way in a blank space with nothing to guide you. Finding a these tracks are supposed to be harder than that? Heck, cutting through a jungle with no paths and finding your destination is also DC 15.

Oh, and before I get accused of making this stuff up because it must be setting specific, DMG page 112.

Cool, but there's more going on than just the path, per RAW. "Whatever the reason, travelers might look for a halfling village, but they fail to notice a narrow path that cuts through the underbrush, or they find themselves traveling in circles and getting no closer to their goal. Rangers who have encountered halflings or lived among them know of this effect, and they learn to trust their other senses and their instincts rather than relying on sight."

 

[JiffyPopTart]

If you are so far in the weeds of "believability" in your game that halflings growing their own spices and succulents is one of your lines in the sand...then perhaps the issue with halflings isn't a systematic one, but rather just your own very limited ability to roll with things.

40 ton dragons flying....not a problem. Peppercorns in a halflings pot...no way man!

Clearly you are just here to "win", so I give you the trophy and I'm out.

 

[jgsugden]

Then feel free to homebrew that level of realism into your game. D&D doesn't care about that.

You might want to check out the DMG, chapter 1. D&D can be hack and slash with little concern for realism, or immersive with a lot of care about the details that help pull a player into a story.

I try to make the world feel like reality(+). Except where there is an intentional decision not to do so, my world follows the rules of the real world. I base the locations in my campaign setting on real world locations (with some changes to keep it from being so obvious), and when players ask me about things like, "what crops are they growing", they see me refer to my notes - which are not my notes, they are a Google search for Ireland, Tunisia, Ukraine, Peru, or whatever location I used as a template.

Why bother? Because it gives the players a sense that their characters are in a world that makes sense. It makes their stories feel deeper when the world behaves as they'd expect it to rather than feeling like the DM just hand waves their situations to get to the next combat. There is a very high correlation between the enjoyment I have experienced at a game table, the enjoyment I've seen others have at game tables, and the baseline realism of a world.