• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

Chaosmancer

Legend
So now you're accusing me of having written Mordenkainen's. Awesome.

And yet another Strawman from your straw army. I never said that.

If you have to go to the real world to "win" this, you've lost.

Nope.

Cool, but there's more going on than just the path, per RAW. "Whatever the reason, travelers might look for a halfling village, but they fail to notice a narrow path that cuts through the underbrush, or they find themselves traveling in circles and getting no closer to their goal. Rangers who have encountered halflings or lived among them know of this effect, and they learn to trust their other senses and their instincts rather than relying on sight."

Dude, I'm done. This is just getting stupid.

You want to insist that they trade, but they don't sell, because selling is different than trading, and they can't trade more than once a month or whatever, because they don't have a lot of people but that has never mattered before, because we know small communities traded weekly, but that means I've lost because DND doesn't care about how often people traded and looking for that information means that... what?

DnD has never stated trees use photosynthesis either. Do you think that if you described might oak trees in the complete dark of the Underdark your players aren't going to go "wait, how is this growing here" and your response of "DND doesn't care about realism, it is fantasy!" isn't going to get you some weird looks?

But fine, you think halflings are perfect. I'm done trying to show you the mistakes you refuse to see
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Vaalingrade

Legend
D&D features complete societies that operate in the energy negative Underdark, including a drow society run by a god who is expressly pitting them against each other constantly, but which hasn't collapsed entirely within five years.

If you're going to argue for precious verisimilitude, the Underdark is not where you start.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
If you are so far in the weeds of "believability" in your game that halflings growing their own spices and succulents is one of your lines in the sand...then perhaps the issue with halflings isn't a systematic one, but rather just your own very limited ability to roll with things.

40 ton dragons flying....not a problem. Peppercorns in a halflings pot...no way man!

Clearly you are just here to "win", so I give you the trophy and I'm out.

If I was running a game and I said "Over the next dune of sand you see a field rice" my players are going to be confused. Rice takes a lot of water to grow. A lot. It can't be grown in the desert without major changes to the environment.

They would likely start investigating, looking into why this rice is growing, what are the people doing to allow this to happen. If my response was "it is fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense" then I'm telling them that they can't learn or assume anything about the world.

Anything that seems strange or out of place, well, it is fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense. So it can't be a sign that something strange is going on.

Dragons are primeval beasts born of ancient magic. Peppercorn is something they interact with on a fairly regular basis. Just like I wouldn't allow them to walk through a wooden wall, because wood has properties, peppercorn has properties. Including where it can survive.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
You might want to check out the DMG, chapter 1. D&D can be hack and slash with little concern for realism, or immersive with a lot of care about the details that help pull a player into a story.

I try to make the world feel like reality(+). Except where there is an intentional decision not to do so, my world follows the rules of the real world. I base the locations in my campaign setting on real world locations (with some changes to keep it from being so obvious), and when players ask me about things like, "what crops are they growing", they see me refer to my notes - which are not my notes, they are a Google search for Ireland, Tunisia, Ukraine, Peru, or whatever location I used as a template.

Why bother? Because it gives the players a sense that their characters are in a world that makes sense. It makes their stories feel deeper when the world behaves as they'd expect it to rather than feeling like the DM just hand waves their situations to get to the next combat. There is a very high correlation between the enjoyment I have experienced at a game table, the enjoyment I've seen others have at game tables, and the baseline realism of a world.

This.

But I guess that is bad
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
D&D is not, not has it ever been a realistic Earth simulator. Literally the ONLY reason halflings couldn't grow the spices they would need on their own farms is if the GM decided that they couldn't. There is no "lore" laying out irrigation requirements , crop availability, or any of that garbage you are trotting out.

Know how I know that halflings grow everything they need on a self sufficient farm to be excellent creators of foodstuffs? Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM. Absolutely zero problem.
I don't know why you quoted this post of mine & then edited out the quote but whatever... Throw a big clump of cactusbeside the frozen climber bodies while running Rhime of the frostmaiden & players are going to so view it as so obviously out of place that finding their investigation into how the cactus plants are magically thriving ends with "Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" is unlikely to go over well. That player reaction is probably going to be even worse so if this is not the first time they ran into that level of planning as the increasingly starfish alien style halflings.

Those same players don't need perfect realism or an advanced botany degree to know that different crops grow in different areas. It doesn't take a professor of history to remember that there was some reason why pepper & silk were valuable imported trade goods in Europe that is still today not something grown or farmed locally for most of the world. That level of completely unpredictable & alien might be fine for your game, but it introduces multiple problems. First if just anyone can trivially grow trade goods there is no longer any reason for them to have value & your salt pepper silk weeds will confuse players why those are removed from trade goods or remove their ability to feel any familiarity they can compare to while attempting to see the world from the mindset of their character. Second you seem to have gone full loonytoons cartoon world to answer the question of why halflings force intelligent creature with free will to treat halfling settlements like the floor is lava children's game. Someone else suggested that a druid could grow pepper wherever & that was reasonable, but we were talking about a farmer who decided to grow his own pepper on top of everything else he & his family eats because they don't engage in trade and do engage in trade and don't use a cart while doing it and do use a cart in order to avoid making roads or paths because someone raised the problem of why the halflings are not at least as serious about dangerous wildlife & bandits as farmers at a similar point in history when d&d has much more dangerous even thinking monsters as part of good faith discussion & someone else raised the problem of why halflings force everyone else to not show any interest in bettering themselves & those they care about through the advancement of civilization as romans mongols & others did through good faith discussion. Those starfish alien halflings are indeed outrageous because there was an attempt to invoke "BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" to ignore the discussion & dismiss both posters.

Remember they are only growing pepper because the dismissal fell apart over the extremely reasonable expectation of them enjoying "generous meals" that at least use exotic spices like salt & pepper but would need to trade for simple things like salt or pepper for those meals & couldn't due to the fact that don't engage in trade but do engage in trade while not engaging in trade and actually engaging in trade in such a way that they never risk forming a path that a reasonably skilled bandit ranger could possibly find with their skills while actively looking for it so a near complete lack of interest in self preservation can be preserved in a world where dangerous animals bandits or even monsters exist in any amount north of zero. That might sound confusing, and it is. Unfortunately someone was trying to throw out unbelievable extremes to dismiss two different reasonable problems raised by two different posters engaging in good faith discussion & in doing so created a totally unbelievable situation that lights suspension of disbelief on fire for each problem by cranking the dial for the other well past 11.

Perhaps you can tell me about how dwarves can't have a mining subculture because the sludge and runoff from the ore processing would poison their groundwater and they would all die of radon poisoning.
There are a number of things I could say if a player ever asked because dwarves don't shun everything about advancement of civilization magic & industry like the shire halflings... "They don't shun magic & have quite the reputation for crafting magic items. Also their cities don't tend to be literally inside raw mines even if they live underground. Their settlements use extensive purification enchantments." The shire halfling monoculture by comparison doesn't notably use magic, avoids crafting, & aren't known as super druid farmers either.

On this specific note I actually had it come up in a way. the players found an abandoned subterranean ancient dhakaani city for plot reasons & initially one player voiced a reasonable concern of checking the air in case it was bad after thousands of years being abandoned all sealed up. Much like the dwarves above the dhakaani did use those kinds of enchantments & at least one eberron source makes note of it so the players were intrigued to discover that the air seemed cleaner than it was outside the seal. After investigating this specific curiosity the players found evidence of these large scale enchantments & proceeded to spend quite a few sessions trying to beg borrow & bribe skilled arcanists & researchers into reverse engineering the enchantments with the goal of getting rich while establishing/managing a small company town & its problems as exploration of the city progressed. All of that was possible because there were reasonable understandable reasonings & motives the players could process to consider "how would my pc react to this"
Maybe about how tritons all suffer from severe scurvy because they lack some vitamin C in the form of citrus fruits in their diet?
When was the last time you saw vitaminC noted prominently on a bag of dog or cat food?... Probably never because "The cells of nearly all animals on the planet make plenty of their own vitamin C and thus have no need for it in their diets. Humans and other primates are pretty unique in our need to have vitamin C in our diet."* That's fine if you didn't know that & declared tritons considered fruit a valuable commodity or got it from some other aquatic source too. Either of those would be something players can easily understand & make plans around knowing in being part your world. Those triton orange deliveries are very different from shrodinger's cart/wagon for halflings that don't but do engage in trade that the rest of the world just ignores like lava. You could also say any number of other things such as "vitaminc is not discovered as a distinct thing so nobody ever looked into if it's a problem or why not if not" or even "I'm not sure how investigating that could be enjoyable for the group and there's that actual problem you know of".
Or perhaps in your world elves suffer mass amounts of depression and mental illness because they live lifespans of 800 years and all their friends of other races are doomed to die around them and their mindnumbingly boring existence of spending 200 years learning to weave baskets.
This one is easy & at least one eberron source goes into a bit of detail on it. Here's a nice podcast episode on some of it too with the "perfected skill" jumplink being the part that particularly gets into the basket. I'm not thrilled about the rather setting specific elves that leave out eberron & darksun elves in the phb either, but a least they come closer to fitting settings that are very different from FR than halflings by making some attempt to embrace things like magicn rather than trying to opt out of the d&d world of "medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly" itself as phb shire halflings do.

How stuff happened on Earth isn't how stuff happens in a fantasy world.
You went a good bit beyond "fantasy world" & deep into random unknowable world in the last throes of "Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" bleeding to death on the razor's edge of slipping into the point of causing the players themselves to succumb to the madness that stems from lovecraft style noneuclidean geometry of the elder gods.


* you should maybe consider one of the many brands of dog food that understand canine dietary needs other than that one if you do & your degree equipped vet didn't prescribe it for some strange condition.
 
Last edited:

Chaosmancer

Legend
38 years of reading D&D products and not once has this been mentioned that I've seen. You're assuming a level of realism that D&D doesn't give a rat's behind about.

And in the next sentence you are willing to throw out realism in order to "win the internet."

"The fish and shrimp body needs vitamin C( ascorbic acid or ascorbate) to remain in proper health condition..."

If you're going to use super high un-D&D like levels of realism for your homebrew, at least be consistent about it.

I like higher than D&D like levels of realism for my game. However, I 1) fully admit that it's my own homebrew, and 2) don't come close to trying to mirror real life like you do. I get enough of that in...................real life. Why would I put it in my fantasy relaxation?

Huh, I didn't know that.

And turns out, a ten minute google search provides the answer. In a study on why the Inuit (who don't have citrus fruits, yet don't develop scurvy) diet works, there was this bit of information

"Most animals can synthesize their own vitamin C, or ascorbic acid, in their livers, but humans are among the exceptions, along with other primates and oddballs like guinea pigs and bats."

"The pair ate steaks, chops, organ meats like brain and liver, poultry, fish, and fat with gusto. “If you have some fresh meat in your diet every day and don’t overcook it,” Stefansson declared triumphantly, “there will be enough C from that source alone to prevent scurvy.”

From this news article The Inuit Paradox


So, it seems that most fish, shrimp, ect like I said, don't need to eat foods for Vitamin C, their bodies produce it naturally. And if you eat enough raw fish, including their organs you don't need to eat citrus fruit anyways.

So, Tritons avoid scurvy by eating raw fish, which as an undersea people without access to fire to cook their meat... seems like something we were assuming they did anyways.

But, I learned something new, so neat.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Remember when the thesis of this thread was 'halflings don't have a reason to be adventurers'?

Are we even in the same solar system as the original goalposts?

Peppercorns, people. What game would be complete without a full botanical rundown of all the local produce. I neither knew nor cared where peppercorns originated until this thread--and that in and of itself is weird because I imagine Alton Brown would have told me in the 20 years I've watched him.

Who is sitting at the table just waiting to catch the DM out using their past food history knowledge?

AaaaaaHAAA! Those halflings can't have corn because they never biohacked it out of Central American grasses, nor did they figure out the lime-washing process that makes it possible for humans to extract nutrients from it! Your entire campaign world is garbage because of that? And what is with these orange carrots, you HACK? Don't you know there's no house of Orange? In fact, this whole food stall is wrong because all of these brassicas were developed by the Dutch--who have NO place on Faerun.

Check and mate. Campaign over. I win.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
D&D features complete societies that operate in the energy negative Underdark, including a drow society run by a god who is expressly pitting them against each other constantly, but which hasn't collapsed entirely within five years.

If you're going to argue for precious verisimilitude, the Underdark is not where you start.

I wouldn't say the Underdark is necessarily energy negative, it far bigger than normal cave systems, and has a few different sources for increasing energy in the overall system.

But I agree with the general point, it is a can of worms.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Remember when the thesis of this thread was 'halflings don't have a reason to be adventurers'?

Are we even in the same solar system as the original goalposts?

Peppercorns, people. What game would be complete without a full botanical rundown of all the local produce. I neither knew nor cared where peppercorns originated until this thread--and that in and of itself is weird because I imagine Alton Brown would have told me in the 20 years I've watched him.

Who is sitting at the table just waiting to catch the DM out using their past food history knowledge?

AaaaaaHAAA! Those halflings can't have corn because they never biohacked it out of Central American grasses, nor did they figure out the lime-washing process that makes it possible for humans to extract nutrients from it! Your entire campaign world is garbage because of that? And what is with these orange carrots, you HACK? Don't you know there's no house of Orange? In fact, this whole food stall is wrong because all of these brassicas were developed by the Dutch--who have NO place on Faerun.

Check and mate. Campaign over. I win.

No, most of my players don't care where the pepper and salt comes from.

But, I play with a lot of people with various interests, and once while I was describing an aspect of my setting a player shared with us a twenty minute discussion on the origins of Apartheid in South Africa because of the Dutch and how that applied to the current situation.

Just because you don't care how a village in the middle of nowhere with no access to anything that could provide salt, has salt, doesn't mean it can't be something to note. Heck, it could be a plot clue. These people claim to have no contact with the outside world, but they have salt? And they live in a jungle, where you can't harvest salt? That could be a minor hint that there is something more going on, because of course they hide their steel weapons and cult symbols, but who thinks to put away the salt shaker?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Huh, I didn't know that.

And turns out, a ten minute google search provides the answer. In a study on why the Inuit (who don't have citrus fruits, yet don't develop scurvy) diet works, there was this bit of information

"Most animals can synthesize their own vitamin C, or ascorbic acid, in their livers, but humans are among the exceptions, along with other primates and oddballs like guinea pigs and bats."

"The pair ate steaks, chops, organ meats like brain and liver, poultry, fish, and fat with gusto. “If you have some fresh meat in your diet every day and don’t overcook it,” Stefansson declared triumphantly, “there will be enough C from that source alone to prevent scurvy.”

From this news article The Inuit Paradox


So, it seems that most fish, shrimp, ect like I said, don't need to eat foods for Vitamin C, their bodies produce it naturally. And if you eat enough raw fish, including their organs you don't need to eat citrus fruit anyways.

So, Tritons avoid scurvy by eating raw fish, which as an undersea people without access to fire to cook their meat... seems like something we were assuming they did anyways.

But, I learned something new, so neat.
First, are you done or not? Saying you're done and then continuing to quote me sends very mixed messages.

Second, Tritons are not fish and are closer to primates than not.

Third, if you are going to argue realism to this degree, why are you not arguing for Tritons, who you argued survive the great pressures of the deep oceans, to die in the low pressures at the surface?
 

Remove ads

Top