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D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Can't we just say that halfling villages look the way they do because D&D fans want them to look like hobbit shires? However neither halfling villages as described in most D&D books of the default settings not hobbit shires make sense in the default D&D setting. So either we admit they make no sense to preserve the trope or we alter halflings to the point that they start to resemble either short humans or a monstrous race.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Sure. That's why one mule is sufficient. Take some stuff and get what you need for good eats. They don't need a ton of money for that.

Sure, but base metal isn't that costly, and they don't need a lot.

Not so. There are more than just Halfling farmers per the lore.

This is true! But then other Halflings would probably wander in, and they'd have to have contact with other Halfling villages to prevent in-breeding.

They don't need a ton of money huh. Let's just take a look at the trade goods section in the PHB.

Let us say that you wanted a pound of pepper. A single pound for the entire village. That costs two gold. We don't have a lot of farm goods listed, but we do have wheat. A single pound of wheat costs... 1 copper. So, to sell enough wheat to afford a single pound of pepper, you would need to sell 200 lbs.

Oh, and wouldn't you know it, your axe head finally broke. Need some iron to take to town so they can forge you a new one. A single pound of iron (because they don't list steel, which would be more expensive anyways) is 5 silver. So, another 50 lbs of wheat to afford a single pound of iron to make a single axe.

Now, I know mules can carry a lot. But you are seeing the problem here, right? To get the raw materials to the village to make good food, or for those "not farmers" to make their goods starts requiring hundreds of pounds of food to be transported out. Mules limit is 420, maybe a bit more if you truly start wearing it ragged. I took up half of that with just what was needed to afford a pound of pepper and an pound of iron.

Now, maybe these 50 halflings have a mill, likely they settled near a river that no one can follow upstream because of some luck or divine intervention to have a water mill, so they can grind their wheat into flour, doubling value and lowering the weight, but that only works for wheat. Other staple foods or anything they could grow in their orchards wouldn't be so easy. Heck, if they have an apple orchard, and convert it into a hard cider, a single barrel would likely be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of a 8 gold, and would weigh 320 lbs, meaning it would take almost the entire capacity of that single mule.


Which means that trips to trade would likely end up being a daily occurrence. And even if they took multiple different tracks, let us say five, over the course of ten years those would five distinct paths that would be fairly easy to follow back to the village. Especially since we are also saying that other halflings are just going to come wandering in every so often out of nowhere.
 

Oofta

Legend
Which as I responded to Maxperson, really raises the questions of where they are getting the spices, wines, glassware, fruits, iron, and wood that they are using.

Lot of things a tiny little group of less than a hundred farmers wouldn't be able to make that the Halflings seem to have access to.




Well, I listed it out pretty comprehensively in my other post. The one you seem to have skipped.

It is far from unreasonable that a village of 200 to 400 people could have a small defense force, with weapons and armor. Getting to a "small town" means there could be as many as 2,000 people.

The point isn't that the commoners would be fighting, but that they get people whose job it would be to fight the threats. Something that they have the population and wealth to accomplish. Unlike the halfling thorps with their less than 100 members that now seems to be what I need to argue against.

Also, looking at the maps you posted before, they were for Bremen and Easthaven. Quoting the FR wiki:"Circa the Year of the Warrior Princess, 1489 DR, Bremen could rally a meager force of about 25 soldiers" This was while they had a population of 150 souls. Five years prior they had double that, so I would assume 50 soldiers back then, not sure when your map was from.

Had to go to the Legacy of the Crystal Shard Wiki to find a population for Easthaven, seems it was 850 souls. Which, if I apply the same percentage that Bremen had of 16% of their population being soldiers they can muster, would give them a fighting force of 140 people. Not a number supported by anything I could find listed, but they are both part of the Ten Towns, and Easthaven does have a Temple to Tempus and a dedicated armor shop, so I assume that a decent population of people who fight is present. I mean, Rurden's Armory likely doesn't sell pitchforks to the followers of Tempus.
Either use MToF as a source or ignore it. According to that book "Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members..." along with "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders...".

But it's the same old. Even the maps of a dangerous region don't show walls around towns. Dwarves and elves are the only ones with weapon training by default. You can come up with no reason why halfling commoners would be less able to survive than human commoners other than to give human commoners protectors that are not mentioned in any book unless the book is campaign specific.

Don't like halflings? Don't allow them in your campaign. I just reject your claim that can't exist because you hold them to a standard higher than other races.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
They don't need a ton of money huh. Let's just take a look at the trade goods section in the PHB.
Let's not. Specific beats general and we know from the Halfling lore that they don't.
Let us say that you wanted a pound of pepper. A single pound for the entire village. That costs two gold. We don't have a lot of farm goods listed, but we do have wheat. A single pound of wheat costs... 1 copper. So, to sell enough wheat to afford a single pound of pepper, you would need to sell 200 lbs.
Then offhand I'd say that were I Halflings that love food, I'd grow some pepper. Or since, you know, orchards can have some mulberry trees and silkworms, bring silk to trade. Or, since you know, Halflings trading and not generally selling is part of the lore, bring cooks tools, fine clothes, etc. to trade.

Bringing wheat would be stupid, since you know, they don't go to town to sell, but to TRADE and who is going to want 200 pounds of wheat? The lore says that they make a lot of goods themselves, so trading some of those would be much more cost efficient when trading for something like pepper................which of course they can just grow anyway.
Oh, and wouldn't you know it, your axe head finally broke. Need some iron to take to town so they can forge you a new one. A single pound of iron (because they don't list steel, which would be more expensive anyways) is 5 silver. So, another 50 lbs of wheat to afford a single pound of iron to make a single axe.
Still no. Much better things to trade for that ore. 8 pounds of traveler's clothing made by Phyllis Buttercorn and a sprig of Mistletoe that little Will Dumpling found will trade for 10 pounds of iron.
Now, I know mules can carry a lot. But you are seeing the problem here, right? To get the raw materials to the village to make good food, or for those "not farmers" to make their goods starts requiring hundreds of pounds of food to be transported out. Mules limit is 420, maybe a bit more if you truly start wearing it ragged. I took up half of that with just what was needed to afford a pound of pepper and an pound of iron.
Mule carry plenty, because not bringing wheat.
 

Oofta

Legend
Let's not. Specific beats general and we know from the Halfling lore that they don't.

Then offhand I'd say that were I Halflings that love food, I'd grow some pepper. Or since, you know, orchards can have some mulberry trees and silkworms, bring silk to trade. Or, since you know, Halflings trading and not generally selling is part of the lore, bring cooks tools, fine clothes, etc. to trade.

Bringing wheat would be stupid, since you know, they don't go to town to sell, but to TRADE and who is going to want 200 pounds of wheat? The lore says that they make a lot of goods themselves, so trading some of those would be much more cost efficient when trading for something like pepper................which of course they can just grow anyway.

Still no. Much better things to trade for that ore. 8 pounds of traveler's clothing made by Phyllis Buttercorn and a sprig of Mistletoe that little Will Dumpling found will trade for 10 pounds of iron.

Mule carry plenty, because not bringing wheat.
In my own campaign, halflings excel at "small-work". Fine laces, intricately crafted wood and metalwork, fine glasswork and so on. They make things that human's big clumsy fingers have a hard time with.

As such, there's quite a high weight to value ratio when they do trade with outsiders. As far as the overall topic, most small villages were probably quite self sufficient for the majority of their goods. That's true for villages of all races.

So I agree. About the last thing they would trade would be commodities like wheat.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In my own campaign, halflings excel at "small-work". Fine laces, intricately crafted wood and metalwork, fine glasswork and so on. They make things that human's big clumsy fingers have a hard time with.
That makes complete sense since the lore says, "and each resident performs regular chores or offers benefits that support the population. One family might provide baked goods, while another one cobbles shoes or knits clothing."
As such, there's quite a high weight to value ratio when they do trade with outsiders. As far as the overall topic, most small villages were probably quite self sufficient for the majority of their goods. That's true for villages of all races.
Yep. Some people just don't want to admit that Halflings actually work per the lore, though.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One of the reasons why we have gnomes and halflings is that the races pushed into certain racial class niches:

  • Dwarf- Fighters and fightery versions of other classes
  • High Elf- Wizards and wizardy versions of other classes
  • Wood Elf- Druids and druidic version of other classes
  • Halflings- Rogue and roguish versions of other classes
  • Gnomes- Illusionists and illusionist versions of other classes
  • Half Orc- Barbarians and barbaric versions of other classes
Kinda wish halfling lore played up the rogue angle more and the hobbit parts less.
 

Oofta

Legend
One of the reasons why we have gnomes and halflings is that the races pushed into certain racial class niches:

  • Dwarf- Fighters and fightery versions of other classes
  • High Elf- Wizards and wizardy versions of other classes
  • Wood Elf- Druids and druidic version of other classes
  • Halflings- Rogue and roguish versions of other classes
  • Gnomes- Illusionists and illusionist versions of other classes
  • Half Orc- Barbarians and barbaric versions of other classes
Kinda wish halfling lore played up the rogue angle more and the hobbit parts less.
I agree with the rogue thing. It seems like they tried to force them into the bard role for reasons I don't really understand. I guess it kind of fit the "wanderer" aspect of the lore with travelling minstrel aspect of bards. Doesn't seem like a great fit. 🤷‍♂️
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I agree with the rogue thing. It seems like they tried to force them into the bard role for reasons I don't really understand. I guess it kind of fit the "wanderer" aspect of the lore with travelling minstrel aspect of bards. Doesn't seem like a great fit. 🤷‍♂️

I think it coincides with a popular thought of halflings being supporter and not main action characters. Like some don't want Halflings to get the Acrobatics and Assassination aspects of the rogue or thief. So the race was pushed to a more support focused bard look.

Because despite many fans liking halflings as a race, many of them cannot get around to liking the idea of halflings seriously fighting anything with weapons and armor.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
@Maxperson you're still leaping to extremes & into "that thing doesn't work that way" to preserve bad worldbuilding of the plot armor supported halfling monoculture.

The scale & lackadaisical effort you are giving to halfling farmers when it comes to selling their crops implies oe or more of a few things to keep from developing roads & all of them are problematic
  • You are describing a hobbyist gardener who can afford to "take some stuff and get what you need for good eats." & live off something else procured by the servants in the background while such an important person is otherwise doing important things.
    • This is just not reasonable as nothing suggests that halflings live like that sort of nobility
  • You are suggesting that plants will magically grow what you need in the yields you want when you want them ready
    • This... plants don't work that way even with druidcraft & the plant growth spell. If plants did work that way it would result in a world with an indescribably bizarre economy.
  • You are suggesting that crops will fruit all year long & can be left on the vine/stalk/tree/whatever until you are ready to pick them.
    • Some crops* will indeed fruit most of the year in some climates but largely it is a slowprocess that depends on when they are planted & other factors the farmer only has so much control over. Crops not harvested within a rather short window will rot on the vine or go to seed & the market price of rotten produce/grain is generally rather low even in times of famine.
      • * such as many root vegetables & green leafy vegetables where you eat the leaves
  • You are suggesting that whatever crops halflings grow can simply be thrown into storage indefinitely & kept both free from pests as well as in a sellable state & simply pull them from the shelf so they can bring just the right amount to another town for trade.
    • This is a difficult task even with modern methods today & there is certainly nothing to suggest that the phb halfling monoculture has this level of advancement.
Intentionally or not, whatever the intended implication is, you have a serious problem being created to protect another serious problem.
Let's not. Specific beats general and we know from the Halfling lore that they don't.

Then offhand I'd say that were I Halflings that love food, I'd grow some pepper. Or since, you know, orchards can have some mulberry trees and silkworms, bring silk to trade. Or, since you know, Halflings trading and not generally selling is part of the lore, bring cooks tools, fine clothes, etc. to trade.
This might be a language barrier thing but the spice pepper (Piper nigrum) & the fruit from Genus Capsicum known as peppers are two very different things with different needs from many crops. You can't grow those in the same place as say wheat barley or hops. & the amount of water needed for something like peppercorn makes them difficult to grow alongside many other crops without modern irrigation. You can see this first hand today by going around the grocery store produce to see what countries the fruits & vegetables came from.

The silkworm, like the coffee bean, is a product that is very region specific where merchants & nobles spent fortunes in bribes & political favors attempting to transport the worm/plant back home in hopes of developing the ability to produce silk & coffee locally to avoid the expensive trade route. Even today with modern knowledge this is a difficult thing to do unless the climate is jut close enough to perfect in enough aspects for the worm & tree in the case of silk or for the coffee bean itself to develop right in the case of coffee. If silk, coffee, or even spices like pepper were on the table as a crop/trade good for halflings they would be displaced by merchants offering money or merchants hiring armed forces willing to do dirty deeds to some less valuable area to make room for productive farmers & silk producers.

If the halflings were productive farmers who produced crops in volumes like a farmer or valuable tradegoods like people who make a living producing them we again run into the merchant problem. An individual farmer not living in town might need to bring their crop of whatever to town after harvest, but like the blacksmith there would be a merchant with ties to other merchants who then buys most or all of that crop a a reasonable price & brings it down a road in a cart or wagon to a larger town or even port city where it can be sold by a trade cartel of some sort.

Bringing wheat would be stupid, since you know, they don't go to town to sell, but to TRADE and who is going to want 200 pounds of wheat? The lore says that they make a lot of goods themselves, so trading some of those would be much more cost efficient when trading for something like pepper................which of course they can just grow anyway.
A merchant who specializes in distribution would want two hundred pounds of wheat, in fact said merchant probably wants two thousand pounds of wheat from the farmer & still more from other farmers. That merchant wants so much wheat because he's got a contract with various general stores in various towns & cities to supply them with hundreds of pounds of wheat hundreds of pounds of flour & hundreds of pounds of other stuff sent across roads.
Still no. Much better things to trade for that ore. 8 pounds of traveler's clothing made by Phyllis Buttercorn and a sprig of Mistletoe that little Will Dumpling found will trade for 10 pounds of iron.
That goes back to the fact that things take time to produce and aren't going to be ready just when you need them. A store doesn't need two 4 pound "clothes, traveler's" from bob the halfling farmer because there is another merchant already contracted to bring him an entire crate of them along with a bunch of other stuff that was ordered when the next shipment arrives.

Also you are confusing the redeemable price of trade goods with the redeemable price of specific things. There's a reason why weapons armor & "adventuring gear" where those clothes are found typically sells at ten to fifty percent below market price. By your own description of trade habits this farmer isn't a particularly noteworthy customer or even supplier that would make the shop these "clothes, traveler's" might get sold to willing to give a little better price on purchasing

"What if Phyllis Buttercorn makes her living making clothing?" In that case her profession is "seamstress" just as Bob farmer's profession is farmer and she doesn't really need to give them to bob the farmer because mike the merchant is coming next month to get a whole crate of them that he intends to buy with coin she can use to buy food & other goods from mike or some other merchant with a local shop. It might be she only works part time & mike merchant is only getting that crate of clothing because he's also going to be there in town to get a bunch of other locally produced goods to bring elsewhere over a road but she's still a seamstress who is only going to buy bob so much salt pepper & ale/spirits before telling him the story of the ant and the grashopper
Mule carry plenty, because not bringing wheat.
Wheat doesn't magically get transmuted into clothes because you want them. d&d doesn't need ultra detailed economics or anything but even video games tend to have a firmer grasp on things like trade & economies than your recent posts trying to avoid roads from developing are sketching out.
 

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