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D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

Voadam

Legend
I assume Forgotten Realms has a silk road equivalent going from Kara Tur or adjacent lands to the core, but I have not seen it (or looked for it). They usually go into these flavor and economic/ecological things sporadically and while sometimes in super depth it is generally not comprehensively. Golarion (Pathfinder) probably has a silk road too with their fantasy India, East Asia, and Middle East world counterparts, but I don't remember it being discussed in the 3.5 campaign setting book. I am similarly not aware of whether this is specified in Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, Mystara, Cerilia (Birthright), or other D&D worlds. They might have differing levels of description of where their spices come from, but not something I remember having seen.

The spice road and spice trade was historically very important and an analogue or alternate system can be very interesting in D&D (or abstractly handwaved or ignored).

I know of one 160 page sourcebook that goes in depth on it for D&D fantasy, but that is more than I am really interested in getting into the subject. But it is there for those who are interested.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I assume Forgotten Realms has a silk road equivalent going from Kara Tur or adjacent lands to the core, but I have not seen it (or looked for it). They usually go into these flavor and economic/ecological things sporadically and while sometimes in super depth it is generally not comprehensively. Golarion (Pathfinder) probably has a silk road too with their fantasy India, East Asia, and Middle East world counterparts, but I don't remember it being discussed in the 3.5 campaign setting book. I am similarly not aware of whether this is specified in Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, Mystara, Cerilia (Birthright), or other D&D worlds. They might have differing levels of description of where their spices come from, but not something I remember having seen.

The spice road and spice trade was historically very important and an analogue or alternate system can be very interesting in D&D (or abstractly handwaved or ignored).

I know of one 160 page sourcebook that goes in depth on it for D&D fantasy, but that is more than I am really interested in getting into the subject. But it is there for those who are interested.
The Forgotten Realms does and I believe it's even called the Silk Road.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
No, most of my players don't care where the pepper and salt comes from.

But, I play with a lot of people with various interests, and once while I was describing an aspect of my setting a player shared with us a twenty minute discussion on the origins of Apartheid in South Africa because of the Dutch and how that applied to the current situation.

Just because you don't care how a village in the middle of nowhere with no access to anything that could provide salt, has salt, doesn't mean it can't be something to note. Heck, it could be a plot clue. These people claim to have no contact with the outside world, but they have salt? And they live in a jungle, where you can't harvest salt? That could be a minor hint that there is something more going on, because of course they hide their steel weapons and cult symbols, but who thinks to put away the salt shaker?
as another example of clues. There was a sailor captured by islanders(tribes?) back in the 1700s(?) or so who noticed that the roof of one building used more advanced construction than all of the other buildings in the village & started asking about it only to find that the reason was due to the tribe previously capturing a carpenter who survived a shipwreck & built it while he was there in the village. Excited to find another english speaker in the area he kept asking about the builder & found that the carpenter never integrated well with the tribe so was sold to another village where he was killed in a ritual. The sailor learned a critically important clue & went on to establish himself both within the tribe as well as the slave trading world. I don't remember the guy's name but think it was north of Australia in the Polynesian islands. Incongruities in logic can be critical clues flashing "investigate me" in big neon lights both in the real world as well as d&d
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Where does it say this?

In fact, aren't dwarves described as living in clans? And elves IIRC are extremely egalitarian.

Most campaign settings actually go into detail about governments of their various nations and feudal societies are very rare indeed--mostly because modern audiences would be turned off by serfdom, which is slavery with extra steps.

Clans don't invalidate a ruler-noble-commoner system.

The gnomish and halfling all commoner societies are anomalies. And the gnome isn't exactly stated so there might be gnome nobles and royals.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
This ruler-noble-commoner system you speak of.... It really has no actual connection to feudalism.

Let's not mince words here: the word feudalism uses is not 'commoner', it's 'serf' and a serf is basically a feature that lives on a noble's property. They were protected in the same way a dragon protects gold coins: but crushing them with its enormous fanny.

That's not the default in D&D world. There, it's more like pop culture depictions where common farmers just pay taxes to some distant noble and in exchange, get protection from knights. Serfs worked the noble's land in exchange for barely enough food to live and only occasionally being assaulted by minor nobles who could afford a horse an armor, making them invincible to all the stabbings they deserved.
 


JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
I don't know why you quoted this post of mine & then edited out the quote but whatever... Throw a big clump of cactusbeside the frozen climber bodies while running Rhime of the frostmaiden & players are going to so view it as so obviously out of place that finding their investigation into how the cactus plants are magically thriving ends with "Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" is unlikely to go over well. That player reaction is probably going to be even worse so if this is not the first time they ran into that level of planning as the increasingly starfish alien style halflings.

Those same players don't need perfect realism or an advanced botany degree to know that different crops grow in different areas. It doesn't take a professor of history to remember that there was some reason why pepper & silk were valuable imported trade goods in Europe that is still today not something grown or farmed locally for most of the world. That level of completely unpredictable & alien might be fine for your game, but it introduces multiple problems. First if just anyone can trivially grow trade goods there is no longer any reason for them to have value & your salt pepper silk weeds will confuse players why those are removed from trade goods or remove their ability to feel any familiarity they can compare to while attempting to see the world from the mindset of their character. Second you seem to have gone full loonytoons cartoon world to answer the question of why halflings force intelligent creature with free will to treat halfling settlements like the floor is lava children's game. Someone else suggested that a druid could grow pepper wherever & that was reasonable, but we were talking about a farmer who decided to grow his own pepper on top of everything else he & his family eats because they don't engage in trade and do engage in trade and don't use a cart while doing it and do use a cart in order to avoid making roads or paths because someone raised the problem of why the halflings are not at least as serious about dangerous wildlife & bandits as farmers at a similar point in history when d&d has much more dangerous even thinking monsters as part of good faith discussion & someone else raised the problem of why halflings force everyone else to not show any interest in bettering themselves & those they care about through the advancement of civilization as romans mongols & others did through good faith discussion. Those starfish alien halflings are indeed outrageous because there was an attempt to invoke "BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" to ignore the discussion & dismiss both posters.

Remember they are only growing pepper because the dismissal fell apart over the extremely reasonable expectation of them enjoying "generous meals" that at least use exotic spices like salt & pepper but would need to trade for simple things like salt or pepper for those meals & couldn't due to the fact that don't engage in trade but do engage in trade while not engaging in trade and actually engaging in trade in such a way that they never risk forming a path that a reasonably skilled bandit ranger could possibly find with their skills while actively looking for it so a near complete lack of interest in self preservation can be preserved in a world where dangerous animals bandits or even monsters exist in any amount north of zero. That might sound confusing, and it is. Unfortunately someone was trying to throw out unbelievable extremes to dismiss two different reasonable problems raised by two different posters engaging in good faith discussion & in doing so created a totally unbelievable situation that lights suspension of disbelief on fire for each problem by cranking the dial for the other well past 11.


There are a number of things I could say if a player ever asked because dwarves don't shun everything about advancement of civilization magic & industry like the shire halflings... "They don't shun magic & have quite the reputation for crafting magic items. Also their cities don't tend to be literally inside raw mines even if they live underground. Their settlements use extensive purification enchantments." The shire halfling monoculture by comparison doesn't notably use magic, avoids crafting, & aren't known as super druid farmers either.

On this specific note I actually had it come up in a way. the players found an abandoned subterranean ancient dhakaani city for plot reasons & initially one player voiced a reasonable concern of checking the air in case it was bad after thousands of years being abandoned all sealed up. Much like the dwarves above the dhakaani did use those kinds of enchantments & at least one eberron source makes note of it so the players were intrigued to discover that the air seemed cleaner than it was outside the seal. After investigating this specific curiosity the players found evidence of these large scale enchantments & proceeded to spend quite a few sessions trying to beg borrow & bribe skilled arcanists & researchers into reverse engineering the enchantments with the goal of getting rich while establishing/managing a small company town & its problems as exploration of the city progressed. All of that was possible because there were reasonable understandable reasonings & motives the players could process to consider "how would my pc react to this"

When was the last time you saw vitaminC noted prominently on a bag of dog or cat food?... Probably never because "The cells of nearly all animals on the planet make plenty of their own vitamin C and thus have no need for it in their diets. Humans and other primates are pretty unique in our need to have vitamin C in our diet."* That's fine if you didn't know that & declared tritons considered fruit a valuable commodity or got it from some other aquatic source too. Either of those would be something players can easily understand & make plans around knowing in being part your world. Those triton orange deliveries are very different from shrodinger's cart/wagon for halflings that don't but do engage in trade that the rest of the world just ignores like lava. You could also say any number of other things such as "vitaminc is not discovered as a distinct thing so nobody ever looked into if it's a problem or why not if not" or even "I'm not sure how investigating that could be enjoyable for the group and there's that actual problem you know of".

This one is easy & at least one eberron source goes into a bit of detail on it. Here's a nice podcast episode on some of it too with the "perfected skill" jumplink being the part that particularly gets into the basket. I'm not thrilled about the rather setting specific elves that leave out eberron & darksun elves in the phb either, but a least they come closer to fitting settings that are very different from FR than halflings by making some attempt to embrace things like magicn rather than trying to opt out of the d&d world of "medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly" itself as phb shire halflings do.


You went a good bit beyond "fantasy world" & deep into random unknowable world in the last throes of "Because BOOM I just willed it to be so as the GM" bleeding to death on the razor's edge of slipping into the point of causing the players themselves to succumb to the madness that stems from lovecraft style noneuclidean geometry of the elder gods.


* you should maybe consider one of the many brands of dog food that understand canine dietary needs other than that one if you do & your degree equipped vet didn't prescribe it for some strange condition.
The post I made was originally a reply to a line you mentioned, but my phone can't handle very long quotes (like this one) and has a hard time putting what I say in the correct place. In that particular exame, by the time I finished deleting everything you wrote other than the pertinent lines the text editor had made everything I typed show up as your quote. The easiest remedy was to remove the quote entirely, which is still hard to do on a phone but possible.

And, as a reply to what is quoted here.....you are equating my campaign assuming halflings just grow their own spices as equivalent to me putting a cactus in an arctic setting. If you think those two things are the same, I'm not sure what to tell you other than I don't agree.

Also, I have never said halflings hide in the back alleys of the world never trading and remaining aloof of everyone. That's not my argument and not my position to pivot from.

My view is that halflings just settle in peaceful areas of the world, are good neighbors, defend themselves from raids/wild animals/monsters, and team up with other good guy powers when something more dangerous comes along.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
They would likely start investigating, looking into why this rice is growing, what are the people doing to allow this to happen. If my response was "it is fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense" then I'm telling them that they can't learn or assume anything about the world.
Instead of saying "it's fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense", you say "it's fantasy, it's a magical variety of rice that doesn't require as much water and halfling magic helps support it." Seriously, this isn't hard.

And if the players really want to dig into the world-building implications of magical rice, more power to them, you have a new avenue of your game to explore.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
This ruler-noble-commoner system you speak of.... It really has no actual connection to feudalism.

Let's not mince words here: the word feudalism uses is not 'commoner', it's 'serf' and a serf is basically a feature that lives on a noble's property. They were protected in the same way a dragon protects gold coins: but crushing them with its enormous fanny.

That's not the default in D&D world. There, it's more like pop culture depictions where common farmers just pay taxes to some distant noble and in exchange, get protection from knights. Serfs worked the noble's land in exchange for barely enough food to live and only occasionally being assaulted by minor nobles who could afford a horse an armor, making them invincible to all the stabbings they deserved.
That's why I originally said fantasy medieval era fuedalism. You know.. the one where serfs are upgraded to overtaxed commoners.

The main purpose of the assumption are to provide the monetary and security bases for the whole questing adventurer system. These people fund the quests, grant the land, and build the dungeons.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
That's why I originally said fantasy medieval era fuedalism. You know.. the one where serfs are upgraded to overtaxed commoners.

The main purpose of the assumption are to provide the monetary and security bases for the whole questing adventurer system. These people fund the quests, grant the land, and build the dungeons.
But that's not in the books either. I thought this whole thing was about how halflings sucked and didn't deserve to be a core race based on the books as written, not based on your headcannon.
 

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