D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

Halflings love warm fires
Fires create smoke
Smoke rises above the treeline, indicating civilization
"Walk toward smoke, find village" is not rocket science

Additionally, Orcs tend to live in mountains
Mountains are tall
Standing in their mountain home, orcs could look down on a halfling village
"Walk towards that village we can see from the mountains" is not rocket science

Lucky for the Halflings, there's never an orc around when they have a fire lit. And luckily that copse of trees near their home stops the orcs in the mountains from being able to see them.

Or the fact that their defenses are listed. They are

We are too lucky to be attacked
We drive off our attackers with sticks and rocks

And weapons and magic. They have lots of adventurers with weapons and magic.

Which is... not exactly what I would call adequate defenses.

A bunch of retired and visiting adventurers is some pretty good defense. For those very, very, VERY rare times an enemy can actually find them.

You know, I remember a lot of arguments about wizards being super rare, because no one is going to take the time to be educated to be a wizard. How many people growing up in farming communities with no contact with the outside world have the time or access to study magic.

Depends on the DM. Read the DMG. You can make magic super rare or super common. Up to you.

Not saying that a wizard is needed to defend every town, but it is not a far stretch to say the vast majority of halflings would have little access to arcane magic.

Depends on what kind of adventurers are among the many retired Halflings.

Or the lore tells us they use rocks and sticks and barrel lids, instead of arrows, swords and shields.

Actually, it only tells us that Avoreen has them practice with those. It doesn't say that they exclusively use those at the expense of common sense. It's not like they don't have access and retired adventurers with plenty of them.

Yes, Halflings are hard to scare, that doesn't make every single one of them a Marine, capable of pulling off complex and deadly maneuvers with no chance of messing up. It doesn't make them unable to be hurt and killed by more skilled opponents. They are just hard to spook, sometimes that is good, sometimes that is bad. Because sometimes fear is bad, and sometimes fear is good and healthy.

Yay! More Strawmen.

No other race is called out as being nearly exclusively agrarian. Yes, people like to picture DnD as the early medieval ages where massive percentages of the population were farmers and everyone struggled to survive.

Too bad they didn't have Halfling luck and Halfling gods to save them. Or D&D levels of realism.

 

[Maxperson]

The halfling communities in human/dwarf/elf lands are not far out the way.

Sure they are. All it takes is 10 miles(and probably less) and an army would never encounter them.

Because halflings do not confer their luck to humans when living in a human town.

Doesn't affect the Halflings at all. It just means that their small numbers aren't hidden out of the way like their villages are.

I want halfling luck to outright named in the lore and made into a greater effect in mechanics.

Then make it. It's not that powerful in the mechanics for balance reasons. You can change that, though.

If dwarves get their own armor and weapons, halflings should get their own magical luck field.

Armor and weapons aren't that powerful. An improved luck field over what they already get would be, but again, that's your call.

 

[Maxperson]

The way I see it, a race's write-up in the PHB is supposed to provide you with some ideas of the typical heroes and adventurers for that race. Of course, players can and do come up with their own ideas for heroes and adventurers of all races, and often, it can be fun to come up with a character that subverts the expectations of that race. My criticism of halflings as presented in 5e is that their racial write-up doesn't really do that. Let's compare the halfling write-up in the PHB with the write-ups of elves, dwarves and gnomes for each of the 13 classes.

1) Artificer
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: "crunch of grinding gears, minor explosions...", "many gnomes are skilled engineers, alchemists, tinkers and inventors", "homes are well-hidden with clever constructions...""Gnomes who settle in human lands are commonly gemcutters, engineers, sages or tinkers", "those who tend towards law are sages, engineers, researchers, scholars, investigators or inventors".

2) Barbarian
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

3) Bards
Elves: "...soft music drifts through the air...", "Elves love nature and magic, art and artistry, music and poetry...", "Elves encountered outside their own lands are commonly traveling minstrels, artists..."
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: "fine drink and fine conversation", "Halflings are an affable and cheerful people", "Halflings are adept at fitting into a community...making themselves valuable and welcome"
Gnomes: "Gnomes take delight in life", "those who tend towards chaos are minstrels, tricksters..."

4) Clerics
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: "Part of their traditions is devotion to the gods of the dwarves, who uphold the dwarven ideals of industrious labour, skill in battle and devotion to the forge", "Other dwarves are driven by the command or inspiration of a deity, a direct calling, or simply a desire to bring glory to one of the dwarf gods"
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

5) Druid
Elves: "They live in the midst of ancient forests", "Elves love nature and magic", "Like the branches of a young tree...", "They have been known to retreat from intrusions into their woodland homes", "Most elves dwell in small forest villages hidden among the trees. Elves hunt game, gather food, and grow vegetables, and their skill and magic allow them to support themselves without the need for clearing and ploughing land"
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: "Forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats...", "Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk", "they also befriend small forest animals"

6) Fighter
Elves: "elves reveal a stern martial side, demonstrating skill with sword, bow and strategy", "nobles compete for services of elf instructors to teach swordplay or magic to their children", "elves enjoy exercising their martial prowess"
Dwarves: "dwarves are known as skilled warriors", "who uphold the dwarven ideals of skill in battle", "some become mercenaries or bodyguards, highly sought after for their courage and loyalty", "a dwarf might search for the axe wielded by a mighty ancestor, lost on the field of battle centuries ago".
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

7) Paladin
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: See quotes for fighters and clerics.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

8) Monk
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

9) Ranger
Elves: "like branches of a young tree", "elves reveal a stern martial side, demonstrating skill with sword, bow and strategy", "elves hunt game, gather food and grow vegetables, and their skill and magic allow them to support themselves without the need for clearing and plowing land", "nobles compete for the services of elf instructors to teach swordplay or magic to their children".
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: "Forest gnomes ... gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats...", "Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk", "they also befriend small forest animals"

10) Rogues
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings are in a weird position in that unlike all the other races listed, their write-up suggests that are they less likely to be rogues, even though it makes sense mechanically: "wanderers love peace, food, hearth, and home", "they're concerned with basic needs and simple pleasures and have little use for ostentation", "they cherish the bonds of family and friendship as well as the comforts of hearth and home, harboring few dreams of gold and glory", "they are generous, happily sharing what they have even in lean times", "halflings live in small, peaceful communities". This does not paint a portrait of a race that is predisposed to theft or trouble, though to be fair, the halfling write-up makes several references to being able to "avoid notice". Of course, "avoiding notice" also means, keeping your nose clean and staying out of trouble, not stealing things.
Gnomes: The gnome write-up also makes reference to being stealthy and avoiding notice, but, instead of emphasising how halflings try to avoid trouble, and care for their communities, it goes out of its way to point out the gnomish love of pranks and tricks.

11) Sorcerer
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

12) Warlocks
Elves: No mention.
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: No mention.

13) Wizards
Elves: "Elves love nature and magic", "their skill and magic allow them to support themselves without the need for clearing and plowing land", "Elves also enjoy exercising their magical prowess or gaining greater magical power"
Dwarves: No mention.
Halflings: No mention.
Gnomes: "their homes are well-hidden by both clever construction and simple illusions", "natural knack for illusion", "using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves",

Final tally: Dwarves' write-ups suggest 3 classes. Gnomes and Elves' write-ups suggest 5 classes that spring naturally from how they are described. Halflings have 1: bards. And even among bards, the elven write-up goes into more detail than the halfling write-up.

You missed this in the race section, "For example, a halfling could be a good choice for a sneaky rogue, a dwarf makes a tough warrior, and an elf can be a master of arcane magic."

 

[FrozenNorth]

You missed this in the race section, "For example, a halfling could be a good choice for a sneaky rogue, a dwarf makes a tough warrior, and an elf can be a master of arcane magic."

Why? What in the Halfling’s write-up suggests that they would steal from people? As a matter of fact, the friendly bucolic communities they live in and their generosity suggest that no halfling would need to be s rogue, since the community forms a support network and they don’t like drawing attention to themselves.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's just silly.

Lord: I need every able bodied man to grab a sword or bow and help repel the Goblin invasion!
Commoner: Sorry, my int is 12, not my str or dex, so I can't pick up a sword or bow and help.

2/3 of everyone using a sword or bow in the fight would not have that bonus.

Right, it is completely silly to say "I need the strongest men in front to hold the line, those who are the best shots, grab the bows". I mean, no group has ever organized themselves by who is best at something.

And, even if 2/3's of them don't, remember I also did a part of the analysis with a +0 group of humans. Meaning no feat and no dex mod. And they still put up solid numbers. So, I would just take those, and increase that by however much the 1/3 increase in accuracy and damage is.

No matter how you slice it, Halflings aren't doing better. Lucky did not make them super soldiers who can devastate things with their awesome crits.

I said hit and crit more often. I didn't use the word "far." Stop Strawmanning my position.....................again.

This is the position you have to agree with or disagree with. Do they hit and crit more often than humans due to their luck? Yes or no?

Yes, by 0.25%. A rounding error that does not make a significant difference in any way.

Is it an absolute value increase? Sure, but to make a comparison, declaring victory on this point would be like having one man win 100 dollars and another win 100 dollars and twenty-five and declaring one of them meaningfully richer than the other. The difference is minuscule.

Okay. Orc: AC 13, Ogre: AC 11, Hill Giant: AC 13 and Goblin: AC 15. Which one of those has a 16 AC?

What part of "I pulled out a random number" didn't you understand the first time?

You decided to challenge me on pulling out a random number because I was talking about goblins. I told you I wasn't' talking about goblins exclusively. That doesn't mean that my number still wasn't random.

You wanna "gotcha" me on the fact that I picked a random number that doesn't correspond to any of the mosnters I've been talking about? Go ahead. My point was to show the math. The numbers. The ratios and percentages. I could have picked any numbers between 5 and 20 to show that. The math would have shown the same result no matter what I picked. Stop harping on the fact that you misunderstood that it was a random number. It literally doesn't matter.

More is more. Halflings hit and crit more. Period.

Someone with 10,001 cookies has more cookies than someone with 10,000. Doesn't likely seem to matter, since the difference is incredibly small. So small you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking.

0.25% more of a chance to crit is close enough to zero to not matter.

Um. If you're adding proficiency to the Humans, then Halflings also get it. Remaining more accurate.

Really? Since when do halflings get a feat from being halfings? I thought only humans got a feat from their race.

Because, you know, I did literally say variant human, and list the feat as Weapon Master, which gives proficiencies.

So how does your level 0 halfling commoner get a feat? Did I miss an errata of the PHB?

:: Then give the Halflings short bows, which they can also use. And the idea that all human commoners would be weapons masters is absurd, which is why I ignored it. If you want to give a reasonable example, I'll be more than happy to engage it.

Oh, I see.

Using the racial abilities of the halflings is reasonable. Using them for the humans is absurd. Sounds completely fair and balanced. Or I guess having a village with mandatory military service is absurd for humans, it isn't like we have something close to a hundred examples of countries and cities doing exactly that throughout history.

Also, remember Mordenkainens? The book that tells us that the halflings have super luck that protects them? The book you've quoted?

It gives us a list of "halfling tactics" that they use to defend their homes. No mention of Shortbows. They are supposed to use rocks and sticks.

Now, you might claim that it doesn't say anything at all about humans, but then again, it doesn't say anything at all about humans. I'm not contradicting anything by saying they defend their homes with longbows, in fact, we know that is a thing that humans do use, because you can buy them in most towns.

But, saying that halflings are using Shortbows... goes against what the book tells us they do. It ignores the lore we are given.

A stone intended to be thrown would be a dex weapon, not strength.

Wrong. The thrown property has you use the same value you would for the melee attack. Since rocks are not finesse weapons, they would use strength.

Also, a rock is not a ranged weapon, it would be a melee weapon. Because you can use it easily and effectively in melee.

A large rock intended to be use to hit with in melee would be strength. But I suppose since the DM makes the call on that, the DM could decide to screw the Halflings unnecessarily and rule that the stone would be strength.

Or, you know, follow the rules as written. That is also a thing they could do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But they aren’t immune to fear, they have advantage, which means greater control of thier fear than humans have.

It doesn’t mean their brains don’t tel them they’re in danger, it just means that fear doesn’t stop them from doing what they need to do about the danger.

Tangentially, in war, fear is...a huge deal. Like, if one side is more afraid than the other, they lose, barring overwhelming advantages on their side.

And if neither side is more afraid of the other?

Because nothing about Halflings is actually inducing fear in their enemies. They aren't that scary. I mean, think about it. Ogres and Orcs will attack fully armed and armored humans. What about a non-armored, non-armed, child-sized human is going to actually scare them?

And so if both sides aren't afraid, then not being afraid isn't an advantage.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I draw a distinction between puns and wordplay. Wordplay makes use of homophones, homographs, and homonyms to create humorous double-meanings, and I adore it. Puns substitute words that kinda sound like other words and often make no other attempt at humor.

Nah, it's all puns. There is no need to arbitrarily invent new distinctions in order to be able to call one form of humor "low" (vomit).

It's not all that clear.
In the same paragraphs it says that halflings move in with other races in small communities.

So do halflings living in human towns lose their luck? Or is the luck overpowered by the harsh thoughs of their human, dwarven, or elven friends forcing them to rely on their allies over luck? IS this why halflings fear leaving their villages as they age?

If halflings are just the luckiest son of a guns in ther world and they survive based on their innocence and fortune, the lore should open with it loudly and their mechanics should heavily push the idea. That's how I introduce halflings in my world. They are lucky. So lucky that they don't see fear the same why normal folk do. Thinks tend to turnout alright for a halfling. You can't count them out until you see a half dozen near fails. To gamble agianst a halfling requires a big wallet as you have to bleed your stash to burn through their good foturne. And even then you are taking a risk.

That sounds wildly overdone. Like having dwarves emit a field where metal items repair themselves and stonework doesn't decay, or something.

They're just lucky. There's no need for a production.

The halfling communities in human/dwarf/elf lands are not far out the way.


Because halflings do not confer their luck to humans when living in a human town.


I want halfling luck to outright named in the lore and made into a greater effect in mechanics.

If dwarves get their own armor and weapons, halflings should get their own magical luck field.

What is this nonsense about halflings extending their luck to others? Why on earth would that even enter your mind? It has no relation to the lore whatsoever, or just...how the game normally works.

 

[Maxperson]

Why? What in the Halfling’s write-up suggests that they would steal from people? As a matter of fact, the friendly bucolic communities they live in and their generosity suggest that no halfling would need to be s rogue, since the community forms a support network and they don’t like drawing attention to themselves.

What suggests that rogues have to steal? Halflings are naturally agile and stealthy. The Halfling write-up is perfect for rogues. And rangers for that matter. They love to wander, are stealthy and don't usually live near cities. Both classes would be good for Halflings.

 

[Maxperson]

Really? Since when do halflings get a feat from being halfings? I thought only humans got a feat from their race.

Because, you know, I did literally say variant human, and list the feat as Weapon Master, which gives proficiencies.

LOL Proficiency =/= proficiencies. You said proficiency, which has a very specific game meaning related to level. You really need to be clear with your terms.

So the utterly ludicrous commoners you have who are commoners, yet weapon masters, have proficiency with long bow. So what. Halflings can use simple weapons like slings and short bows just the same.

Using the racial abilities of the halflings is reasonable. Using them for the humans is absurd. Sounds completely fair and balanced. Or I guess having a village with mandatory military service is absurd for humans, it isn't like we have something close to a hundred examples of countries and cities doing exactly that throughout history.

Making all commoners weapon masters is absurd.

Also, remember Mordenkainens? The book that tells us that the halflings have super luck that protects them? The book you've quoted?

It gives us a list of "halfling tactics" that they use to defend their homes. No mention of Shortbows. They are supposed to use rocks and sticks.

So what. It's irrelevant that tactics practiced in honor of their goddess is mentioned. They still have other weapons and adventurers to kill invaders with.

But, saying that halflings are using Shortbows... goes against what the book tells us they do. It ignores the lore we are given.

It goes against nothing. Nothing there says only sticks and stones to break your bones.

Wrong. The thrown property has you use the same value you would for the melee attack. Since rocks are not finesse weapons, they would use strength.

Where does it specify what all rocks are?

Also, a rock is not a ranged weapon, it would be a melee weapon. Because you can use it easily and effectively in melee.

BS. You cannot use a throwing stone as a melee weapon. It's too small.

 

[Minigiant]

What is this nonsense about halflings extending their luck to others? Why on earth would that even enter your mind? It has no relation to the lore whatsoever, or just...how the game normally works.

The Bountiful Luck feat.

If you have a race of super lucky people who can deter orcs with their luck and share luck, the question is begged whether a halfling neighborhood in a human city grants the city this protection or not.

If halflings have luckand everyone knows, then people will attempt to harness it. Every lord would pay to have these curcious folk to move to their cities and towns. Cheaper that paying a militia. Now if halfling luck can't be cestored on others easily (like it does in my world), then people wont attempt to harness the halfling luck field.