D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

Max is simultaneously trying to dismiss two different problems raised by two different posters using the same increasingly unbelievable scebario to defend the plot armor supported phb halfling

I asked you to stop deliberately misrepresenting my positions. Knock it off.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Halflings would rather to enjoy a simple life than to be sat on the throne with Damocle's sword over their heads. It is not fear, but it spoils the fun.

Halflings are horrible soldiers in the battlefield, but a true nightmare as guerrilla against the suppy lines. What if the sling is their national sport? If they are warned by the cleric's omen or the oracle's vision then the raiders lose the surprise factor, and when they arrive the town is empty. They could loot but not catch slaves, and the found food could be poisoned.

Roman sling bullets had the stopping power of a .44 Magnum

Researcher and slingshot enthusiast Jörg Sprave discovered the surprising power of slingshot bullets found at Burnswark Hill just west of Dumfries by analysing the kinetic energy they could impart.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Halflings are great in an army! They know good foods from simple ingredients, and they’re wonderful for troop morale. Best of all, they don’t break from fear as much as other folk, which means the line doesn’t break from fear as much.

Seriously guys fear is like...one of the most important factors in war.

 

[Minigiant]

Halflings are great in an army! They know good foods from simple ingredients, and they’re wonderful for troop morale. Best of all, they don’t break from fear as much as other folk, which means the line doesn’t break from fear as much.

Seriously guys fear is like...one of the most important factors in war.

But they are short, slow, and can't wield big weapons well.

Again it's about believabilty.

You have a race of child-size adults, you have to go out and explain their survive mechanism a bit. And if the tall folk has their survive explained, you have to explain even more.

Each type of explanation or lack there of hits or misses the believability threshold of each reader and player.

For gnomes, goblins, and kobolds, their explanations exceed the threshold for most.
For halflings, the official or speculated explanations don't pass the threshold for many fans. Something that doesn't feel right for an iconic race.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But they are short, slow, and can't wield big weapons well.

Again it's about believabilty.

You have a race of child-size adults, you have to go out and explain their survive mechanism a bit. And if the tall folk has their survive explained, you have to explain even more.

Each type of explanation or lack there of hits or misses the believability threshold of each reader and player.

For gnomes, goblins, and kobolds, their explanations exceed the threshold for most.
For halflings, the official or speculated explanations don't pass the threshold for many fans. Something that doesn't feel right for an iconic race.

The majority of the army won’t be wielding pikes, so the heavy weapon point is irrelevant, and the whole army needn’t be beefy or heavy, either. As for slow, it’s an army, it moves at the speed of its wagons. Halflings being slightly slower isn’t going to matter.

There’s nothing unbelievable about it.

And your “many fans” seems to be you and maybe two other people. I’ve literally never seen anything remotely resembling your POV anywhere IRL or online before in my entire life.

 

[Minigiant]

The majority of the army won’t be wielding pikes, so the heavy weapon point is irrelevant, and the whole army needn’t be beefy or heavy, either. As for slow, it’s an army, it moves at the speed of its wagons. Halflings being slightly slower isn’t going to matter.

There are more combat roles than pikeman. Many of the halflings are inferior to medium creatures at.

And I mean slow in battle. Halflings are usually portrayed as 1/6 to 1/3 slower than a human.

And your “many fans” seems to be you and maybe two other people. I’ve literally never seen anything remotely resembling your POV anywhere IRL or online before in my entire life.

You must not play many strategy, war, and RPGs outside of D&D.

Like I said many pages back. Halflings are one of the most ditched, depowered, or downgraded races when moved to nonD&D settings. Almost like many designers have problems with it and are quick to toss them out if they don't have to deal with D&D or LOTR baggage.

Believe it or not, many fans can't handle a small race unless the race has a glaringly obvious advatange.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There are more combat roles than pikeman. Many of the halflings are inferior to medium creatures at.

And I mean slow in battle. Halflings are usually portrayed as 1/6 to 1/3 slower than a human.

You must not play many strategy, war, and RPGs outside of D&D.

Like I said many pages back. Halflings are one of the most ditched, depowered, or downgraded races when moved to nonD&D settings. Almost like many designers have problems with it and are quick to toss them out if they don't have to deal with D&D or LOTR baggage.

Believe it or not, many fans can't handle a small race unless the race has a glaringly obvious advatange.

Oh jeez. No. Halflings get left out because they’re the only race that is iconic but also was invented by Tolkien and otherwise only really a D&Dism, ie, they have no thematic link outside of D&D and Middle Earth.

And I’ve played a pretty wide breadth of games. You should probably get past your habit of assuming that people who disagree with you just don’t understand what you’re talking about or don’t have enough experience of whatever. Your position isn’t inevitable or self evident.

 

[Oofta]

I mean, it's not like halflings are actually better than the average humans at most ranged attacks or with light swords (short or rapier) if you use the rules of the game. Being able to hide easily wouldn't make them excellent infiltrators. Being small and able to squeeze into smaller tunnels couldn't possibly be an advantage for sappers or any other specialties.

But much like @doctorbadwolf if it wasn't for 3 posters on this thread (who I seem to disagree with the vast majority of time anyway) I wouldn't know anyone had an issue with halflings.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You really think that being given super magical powers by their gods is not being protected by their gods? If I give you a gun to protect yourself, I have granted you that protection.

But just to show you...

"When gnomes arrived in the world, Baravar protected them by teaching them how to hide, use magic, and deceive their foes."

And...

"Gnomes build their homes in hidden and defensible places because Gaerdal teaches them these techniques. Every secret door, spy hole, and intruder alarm in a gnome warren is a tribute to Gaerdal's principles." - Not taught. Teaches. Present tense.



Without that power the monsters would kill the Paladin. The Paladin is protected by the god that grants those powers.

There is a difference between "here is a gun, use it to protect yourself" and "I will actively work to keep criminals away from your home so you never have to defend yourself"

And note what Baravar and Gaerdal did. They taught. The intruder alarms are based off of his principles, he didn't build them, install them and maintain them though. And, they are physical devices. Things that the gnomes teach and build and use.

But, when confronted with "they would follow the paths" or "they would follow the smoke" you responded with the fact that they are protected by their gods. They aren't taught techniques, they aren't taught magic, they aren't shown how to build a device, the problems are actively solved by the direct interference of the Gods.

That is fundamentally different.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The whole point of "luck" in a fantasy setting is it overrides statistics.

-Sir Terry Pratchett​

Sure, but it still doesn't make probability additive like you claimed.

And, it doesn't fit with the rest of how DnD handles luck based abilities.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Related to this:

Could someone summarize any suggestions to make Halflings or Gnomes more distinct and interesting? I'm sure 40+ pages must have yielded some suggestions?

(And not just the "cannibal nomad" halflings of Dark Sun. Thanks)

I've always preferred the caravan or river boat halfling. Constantly on the move from place to place. Then just... make it clear that they use weapons like everyone else instead of the stones and sticks Mordenkainen's tells us about.

Traveling troupes are much more likely to have everyone trained in everything. Everyone pitches in with cooking, with hunting, with sewing, and they can have hand crossbows or light crossbows. Maybe add an entertainment aspect to them, they are knife jugglers and sharpshooters, they practice magic for shows. That type of stuff can easily be used to defend yourself.

Plus, we don't have a good "wandering nomad" style character race. They can still be about hearth and home, just home is a wagon with all your family nearby.