D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Gammadoodler]

The example given in the post talked about moonshine. Maybe don't accuse people of arguments when they respond to an example given to them.

Also, let us not forget how this line of argument started.

1) How do halfling villages hide when they need to trade?

1a) They don't trade, they limit contact with the outside world

2) Then how do they get the spices and supplies for their famous meals?

2a) They grow them, they are farmers, they grow any spices they need.

3) How does that work, many of those spices can't be grown out of certain environments, that's why they were huge trade commodities.

3a) Its magic, fantasy doesn't need to abide by your rules!


Not exactly a scintillating display of brilliance to plant your flag on "Just because! No one cares why!"

Is it that different a flag placement from the one you'd use for why do elves and dwarves live so long, or how do dragons fly?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Didn't know the Amish and Apalachia dealt with mythical monsters, goblins, orcs, gnolls, dragons, slave races... dang there are a lot of things that the Amish don't need to deal with. I can't even remember the last time I heard about them getting attacked by bandits or demon cultists either.

1) Dude, if you want American myths, you go to Appalachia

2) Let's... not.

3) To be fair, half the time they were the bandits.

Also, as pointed out, the halflings and indeed most normal people don't deal with all that crap on the day-to-day either. Monsters and bandits and such are a frontier problem. Otherwise everyone starves.

In fact, as tetrasodium helpfully points out, everyone is going to starve because there are no railroads, which is key to humanoid civilizations being able to get enough vital peppercorns to survive. Ah, the majestic roar of the mighty Egyptian steam engine...

 

[Maxperson]

The example given in the post talked about moonshine. Maybe don't accuse people of arguments when they respond to an example given to them.

Also, let us not forget how this line of argument started.

1) How do halfling villages hide when they need to trade?

1a) They don't trade, they limit contact with the outside world

2) Then how do they get the spices and supplies for their famous meals?

2a) They grow them, they are farmers, they grow any spices they need.

3) How does that work, many of those spices can't be grown out of certain environments, that's why they were huge trade commodities.

3a) Its magic, fantasy doesn't need to abide by your rules!


Not exactly a scintillating display of brilliance to plant your flag on "Just because! No one cares why!"

If only the real discussion had progressed the way you are imagining it here. It didn't, though.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I have been trying to engage. The result is more misrepresentation and goalpost movement.

It's tiring to deal with this disingenuous back and forth where every time an argument is make, the original transmutes into a deeper and deeper morass with the express purpose of what? Making us all play halflings different? With an obnoxiously militant way of life like everyone else allegedly is?

The point is that halfling lore seems to be incomplete, despite how much people want to insist it is perfect with no flaws.

Could a farm produce enough food for the family to survive off of? Sure, of course they could.

Would that family have glass windows, like we see depicted? Um.. no, to make glass requires a lot of specialized tools and the right materials. It isn't something that can be made anyhere.

What about the book we see the grandfather holding in the picture in Mordens? Um... no. Paper production is very difficult, requires a lot of different materials, though they might be able to make their own leather and glue.

Those things, like they always did, require trade and contact with the outside world. Heck, let me give you something really really basic. Would you ever tell a halfling player they can't send a letter home to their folks?

How does it get there? According to Maxperson and the Book, the few trails that do exist to a halfling village are nearly impossible to find. How does postage reach a village no one can find? The village can be found? Great, then how do they deal with it when dangerous forces find them.

Oofta likes to declare that we have no more explanation for how human commoners deal with this than halflings, but we have a lot of circumstantial evidence, even if I can't provide exact setting neutral percetanges of soldiers for every town and village in DnD. But the idea that human towns do have an organized guard force is... well, I guess I should say was fairly uncontroversial. Magistrates and Guards are pretty common in human towns and villages. The King or local lord likely has patrols keeping the roads safe for travelers.

The issue is that either halflings are simply protected by the humans, or they are so lucky that they don't need to defend themselves. Both answers lead to problems. Halflings become the only race that can't survive on their own, they require the intervention of others, or they are living in a seperate reality from the other races, so lucky that they simply don't face the same dangers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Is it that different a flag placement from the one you'd use for why do elves and dwarves live so long, or how do dragons fly?

Yes

There are plenty of reasons you can give for both, and neither make plants and international trade no longer make sense.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes

There are plenty of reasons you can give for both, and neither make plants and international trade no longer make sense.

Fantasy plants. For the same reasons a Triton may just be able to dive deep into the ocean, halflings may just be able to grow the plants they need for delicious meals.

Trade exists to address scarcity of resources. And the lore seems to suggest that halflings don't need much. Add in fantasy, and a group of people can address scarcity internally, reducing or eliminating the need for trade.

Not gonna say that it all holds together, but I see no reason that this part shouldn't.

 

[Oofta]

The example given in the post talked about moonshine. Maybe don't accuse people of arguments when they respond to an example given to them.

Also, let us not forget how this line of argument started.

1) How do halfling villages hide when they need to trade?

1a) They don't trade, they limit contact with the outside world

2) Then how do they get the spices and supplies for their famous meals?

2a) They grow them, they are farmers, they grow any spices they need.

3) How does that work, many of those spices can't be grown out of certain environments, that's why they were huge trade commodities.

3a) Its magic, fantasy doesn't need to abide by your rules!


Not exactly a scintillating display of brilliance to plant your flag on "Just because! No one cares why!"

According to MToF they don't seek out trade often. Nothing says they need "exotic" spices, although they would likely trade for them if available. If someone wants to add growing of exotic spices due to magic to their campaign, I see nothing wrong with it.

Maybe, just maybe, like people have done for tens of thousand of years they just make meals from what they can grow or gather locally. If they can get their hand on some spices, great. If not they'll be happy with what they do have because that's how they're described.

Of course maybe that could be a reason for adventurers. Facing the horror of yet another meal without pepper, Oblib the halfling ventures out hoping to someday bring back a lifetime's supply of pepper for his friends and family. Step one: find a portable hole or two because there is no way a donkey could be expected to carry anything. Step two: stop by the closest market on the way home.

 

[Chaosmancer]

1) Dude, if you want American myths, you go to Appalachia

Right, because people have actually caught and proved that those are real creatures that really attack people

2) Let's... not.

Apologies, I missed an "r", meant "Slaver races" like... 85% of DnD monsters. Really, "takes people as slaves" is just a really common descriptor of so many things in the MM

3) To be fair, half the time they were the bandits.

Likely not for a while. Also, congrats, One thing that people in the real world dealt with that people in the fantasy world have to deal with.

Also, as pointed out, the halflings and indeed most normal people don't deal with all that crap on the day-to-day either. Monsters and bandits and such are a frontier problem. Otherwise everyone starves.

In fact, as tetrasodium helpfully points out, everyone is going to starve because there are no railroads, which is key to humanoid civilizations being able to get enough vital peppercorns to survive. Ah, the majestic roar of the mighty Egyptian steam engine...

1) I mentioned the railways

2) Hyper-exagerrating points doesn't make your argument better. The entire point of the peppercorn being brought up was really very basic and simple. Halflings are famous for their quality meals. Even the PHB tells us in the part where humans are reflecting on halflings, "It’s hard to beat a meal in a halfling home"

So halflings make incredible meals. They are famous for it.

Pepper and Salt are bare minimum spices. The absolute bottom of the barrel in a lot of cases. So.. they'd have pepper right? They have the best meals, so salt and pepper should be something they have.

But they don't have a lot of contact with the outside world, and rarely trade (or they do trade, they just don't sell, because somehow that is a distinction that matters) So.. how do they get pepper and salt for these famous meals?

No one has ever claimed that halflings will die from a shortage of black pepper in their diets, but spices are generally considered neccessary to a degree for making quality food. And, without trade, halflings just couldn't gain access to a lot of spices, because those plants don't grow in the typical european climate that DnD takes place in.

It isn't a big deal, but it attacks our mental image of what these people are like, if they don't have access to the things we would expect them to have.

 

[Maxperson]

Would that family have glass windows, like we see depicted? Um.. no, to make glass requires a lot of specialized tools and the right materials. It isn't something that can be made anyhere.

A farm can feed several families. That frees up other members to be glassblowers, cobblers, etc. and we know from the books that the villagers have other professions than just farming and help each other out.

What about the book we see the grandfather holding in the picture in Mordens? Um... no. Paper production is very difficult, requires a lot of different materials, though they might be able to make their own leather and glue.

Those things, like they always did, require trade and contact with the outside world. Heck, let me give you something really really basic. Would you ever tell a halfling player they can't send a letter home to their folks?

How does it get there?

We know from the book that they trade and many of them adventure. It's pretty easy to get books when you trade(not sell) and have a lot of adventurers.

Great, then how do they deal with it when dangerous forces find them.

By not being found in the first place. Your contrived set of events to "establish" that Halflings can be found falls flat.

 

[Minigiant]

You don't like halflings. Fine. Don't play one, don't allow them in games you run.

Halflings have capabilities humans do not yet human commoners survive just fine. Whether or not they lead terrible lives in your campaign doesn't affect anyone else's campaign. You make very broad assumptions based on your personal prejudices.

Again.
I don't hate halflings.
They just confuse me.

I don't understand why halflings have happy idealistic idyllic lives where's the sneakier goblins and kobold scrounge for scraps of survivability and gnomes use both mundane and magical tricks to guard their home.