D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Gammadoodler]

Really?

Because, you know, that was my position.

And then @Maxperson and @Oofta started in on me about how halflings were perfect and if I didn't make my world so much more dangerous that no civilization could possibly survive.... and halflings would never sell things for coin because money corrupts.... and the books don't say that, those are just religious excersises.... and you can just wave that away, it is fantasy it doesn't have to be real..... and you don't hold other races to these standards do you...


And on, and on, and on, and on.

"The write up could be improved, because they really should have better defenses for their villages" was my point.

But no I must hate halflings, be too lazy to homebrew them, and hate all of fantasy, while also engaging in Fantasy bs-ery, likely due to my lack of reading comprehension, because I don't accept how perfect they are.

Yes, on an online forum, people may agree on a conclusion without complete agreement on the particulars of that conclusion.

To the extent I have accused you of anything it is that you have consistently engaged in apples to oranges comparisons with regards to how you've compared halflings to other races, where for the halflings you use and accept only explicit MToF stuff, but for other races you're willing to bring in home-brew or all of human real life history as support. You've been playing with a stacked deck and then complaining that the halflings always lose.

 

[Minigiant]

To the extent I have accused you of anything it is that you have consistently engaged in apples to oranges comparisons with regards to how you've compared halflings to other races, where for the halflings you use and accept only explicit MToF stuff, but for other races you're willing to bring in home-brew or all of human real life history as support. You've been playing with a stacked deck and then complaining that the halflings always lose.

To be fair, this is a discussion about the official depictions of halflings and gnomes. There are official descriptions of how the races defends themselves (or don't because they don't have the numbers to create a settlement).

As the one who likely started this argument, I started it about how the halfling write up was extremely idealistic and idyllic but did not explain any of it or hint why in the PHB nor DMG in many editions unlike the other races. The answer usually comes in a splatbook years later and usually fails to catch up with the wealth of info of the other iconic races.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To be fair, this is a discussion about the official depictions of halflings and gnomes. There are official descriptions of how the races defends themselves (or don't because they don't have the numbers to create a settlement).

As the one who likely started this argument, I started it about how the halfling write up was extremely idealistic and idyllic but did not explain any of it or hint why in the PHB nor DMG in many editions unlike the other races. The answer usually comes in a splatbook years later and usually fails to catch up with the wealth of info of the other iconic races.

That's fine. My main issue with the description has nothing to do with the idealism. If you can't have idealism in a fantasy setting, where can you have it?

So I have no problem believing that halflings as presented can exist within the D&D setting even in numbers.

My issue with the description is the near complete lack of general diversity, down to the point where it even fails to address the mechanical diversity included in the PHB.

 

[Minigiant]

That's fine. My main issue with the description has nothing to do with the idealism. If you can't have idealism in a fantasy setting, where can you have it?

So I have no problem believing that halflings as presented can exist within the D&D setting even in numbers.

My issue with the description is the near complete lack of general diversity, down to the point where it even fails to address the mechanical diversity included in the PHB.

That's my problem as well. I can buy the gimmick if given the foundation. However the foundation that explains the lack of diversity and ideal lifestyle is not in the core books.

I get accept that for a third tier race like tritons. But D&D is built with halflings as a major race.

 

[Oofta]

So the problem is not that it's explained how halflings stay unnoticed, it's that it wasn't in the PHB for some. For others, it's that it's just that the explanation (which is obviously supernatural) is not good enough with a world with dragons.

 

[Maxperson]

Again I think you both have it backward.

The issue was never that halfling lore was bad but that it never had a official expanation that could fit the baseline assumption of D&D.. That halfling lore was incomplete

If you say that the official explanation is that halfling have a supernatural ability to find the quietest safest places on the plane, well that's it.

The questions then are: Why the heck isn't that in the PHB or DMG? Is halflings an iconic race or what, WOTC?

I don't agree about the baseline assumption of D&D. I think the race fits just fine.

 

[Maxperson]

I was asked how dwarves could possibly have fires for their forges and breath while underground. The answer (in part) is that they are master stonecrafters.

Are other races capable of crafting stone? Yes, but dwarves are usually the best. Can you have a non-dwarf who is a better stonecrafter? Yes, and they would be incredibly exceptional.

So I asked, if Halflings are able to hide entire villages, a skill no one else exhibits, and they do it with no magic and only through skill, because I was being accused of "man at the gym fallacy" for allowing magic to work, then what skills are those? What is it that halflings can build and use that no other race can match, in general?

Your response was "other crafts"

My response to how they could survive in their village or have things to trade was "crafts." It was never once to enable them to hide. Every last time I've said they aren't found it was because of being in out of the way places and/or their gods. I have been entirely consistent with that.

Except, you also want to take it one step further. The real answer is magic, via Divine Intervention. It is literally because the Gods will it so.

There is no "step further" here. The lore says how they keep from being overrun. They 1) live in out of the way places, 2) don't have anything really worth taking, 3) have their gods to hide them, 4) live in safe areas, and 5) are friendly with their neighbors.

 

[Maxperson]

So for your dwarves you invent fantasy bs-ery to address items lacking in the lore or common sense, but it's ridiculous to do so for halflings. Got it.

This. So it's okay for Dwarves and Gnomes to survive "because magic," but God forbid the Halflings have their gods use magic to help them. That's a no no.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, @Maxperson and I do have different reasons regarding why we might think halflings are ok. Though for my own part, I do agree that there are ways the write-up could be improved.

Sure. There's always room for improvement. That applies to all of the races, though. Halflings are hardly unique in this regard.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't agree about the baseline assumption of D&D. I think the race fits just fine.

I think that's the key issue between you and I.

I could be fine with halflings supernaturally finding all the safest haven of the baseline world and maintain an all commoner lifestyle.

But to me, D&D is not a storybook light fantasy nor wargame grimdark fantasy. Wars, invasions, rads, migrations, and monster attacks don't happen all the time. But they happen. That's how the dungeons get populated and the campaigns get kicked off.

So for halflings to be blessed in a way no other race is, it should have been in the PHB or DMG.

To not include it in either is to treat halflings like a minor race. And quite frankly I must say, not only do a significant percentage of the D&D treat halflings like a minor joke race... many prefer it. And the same people won't admit it. They need them in the game out of Tolkien fandom but they treat halflings like jokes. I'm calling you out 90% of OSR.

EQUALITY FOR HALFLINGS!

(@Maxperson, this is not all directed at you. I'm just being a bit ranty)