D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[doctorbadwolf]

This is such a strange argument.

Halfling villages survive for the same reasons that little farm villages survived throughout history.

 

[Minigiant]

You...didn’t explain the thing. I didn’t say that you said they weren’t iconic, I asked what any of this has to do with the question of their iconic status, and I now add to the question why on Earth that matters in any context or on any level?

what relationship does your complaint about Halflings lore have to “iconic” status?

Because I don't see halflings have the same attributes from designers that elves and dwarves had.

I figured that if halflings are as iconic as elves and dwarves, it would have similar aspects and foci as the other 3. But no halfling magic items. No halfling weapons. No halfling tools. No halfling weapon or magic styles. No halfling PRCs at the start. Fewer images of halfling mages and warriors. Fewer displays of serious halfling characters. Less display of halfling in world events. Less obligation to to fill in elements of halfling lore. Halflings don't even have rogue specialties anymore.

Now you can say "So. Halflings are different. We like them different." Sure, but Different is Different. I expected them to treat halflings somewhat like the other 3. Especially if they are iconic.

But halflings are not treated this way. They are treats like side characters. Protagonists and side characters are not on the same level. Halflings got B plotted.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why would there be a discussion about something that the lore actively refutes? Seems like a silly waste of time.

Then you can tell @Gammadoodler that their discussion is a silly waste of time. However, jumping in on me and attacking me for engaging in their premise doesn't accomplish anything except make it seem like you are agreeing with them.

Or you just will attack my positions no matter what they are or even if you understand what the discussion is.

Right, because that out of the way red dragon lair is reaaaaaaally safe. Or maybe, just maybe, those two aren't the same thing.

"They live in out of the way places" has been short hand for living in places that are far away from monsters. Those places are safe. So that would be the same as "they live in safe places". Unless you are saying that living far away from a red dragon isn't safe?

Because it's a rather big if. You don't raid a place and hope that on a long shot maybe it has something good, or some sandals with a knitted sweater. You hit a place that you know is rich for the loot.

Which halflings have. Unless you somehow think loot is "only money and gems"

Food, people, finely made goods, glass figurines, ceramics, wines all of these are valuable loot that a raiding group could be after.

Um, no. Most places are cordial to each other, not actively friendly.

.... So now halflings have better international relations than every other race in the game... because they are just so friendly. Right. Why not make them even bigger Mary and Gary sues

No they aren't. They just have different blessings. Gnomes and other races got innate magical powers. That's some hefty blessing.

That is your assumption. Magic is something taught. they were taught magic by their gods and then they taught their children and then they taught their grandchildren, ect. And besides, it is only Forest Gnomes that have minor illusion, guess Rock and Deep Gnomes are hated by their own gods?

And, even if, even if we assume that the gods blessed them to have minor illusion as a cantrip, you are comparing the ability of a novice mage to:

Perfectly hidden villages
increased food production
incredible luck that protects them
Active involvement in scouting ahead and warning adventurers

So, yeah, would you like a cantrip, or permanent safety for your entire family for the rest of time and more than enough food to keep your stomachs full for the rest of time?

Do you think about your answers before you respond? It just seems like you're tossing up any old thing in order to try and win the debate, but that's not working out well.

Do you ever do anything except personal attacks? Seriously, you attack me constantly. Not my ideas, me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You asked me how a 11th level rogue might hide a halfling village.

I suggested in generalities, that they might apply some of the same skills applied to avoid notice as a rogue to hiding the village (obfuscation, misdirection, and disguise) trusting that your imagination might be adequate to fill in the gaps.

You accused me of handwaving it.

I provided more specific methods they might use.

You determined that based on your calculations (you included acreage as a factor) of all the fantasy logistics of those things that of course they wouldn't work.

You've since gone on to answer a challenge to dwarves that is precisely as unmoored from reality as anything I've suggested, yet somehow the level of analysis doesn't have quite the same level of rigor, almost like you are handwaving it.

You are arguing hypocritically.

And by the way, I don't know what you expect me to do about how you are engaging with other posters. I can control neither you nor them, and you will find that none of my posts fit the pattern you describe.

Well, maybe you could be a little understanding that by even engaging with you, I've opened myself up to criticism, because according to the people I've been arguing with, your very premise that halflings can use practical skills is silly nonsense, as according to @Maxperson

At least I'm willing to take what you say as a good faith debate and discussion.

Now, I included acreage because of the size of a village. That is, actually, rather important to the question "how do you hide a village". I know this is a rather extreme and hyperbolic example, but what is easier to hide, a penny or a volkswagon? Yes, you could grow plants to hide, say, a gravestone, but an entire farm? That requires a lot more logistics.


Additionally, I was responding to @Paul Farquhar about "so your dwarves farm" and I broke down in broad terms what they do. Because Paul seemed to want to "gotcha" me over the fact that I assume dwarves farm, despite it not saying they farm, but I don't assume halflings have a well-armed militia because they fight monsters with Rocks and sticks. A point that @Oofta always takes and accuses me of assuming, because human commoners don't have weapons that they can use to defend themselves, so why is it a problem that halflings don't?

So yeah, I didn't give an acre by acre breakdown of the Mountain City of Harth, home of the dwarves since the formation of the world. Such a breakdown had nothing to do with Paul's intent or question, and would have been a waste of my time.

Oh, except you decided to jump on that and accuse me of being hypoctitical. Because the size of a village matters for how hard it is to hide, so I mentioned how big it would be, to show how hard "grow plants to hide it" would end up being as a practical matter, but I didn't mention how many acres of mushroom farms Dwarves have, accounting to the increased potential for 3-d space.


Do maybe people see why this is so frustrating right now? Everyone is hitting me with different expectations, different arguments, and different premises then attacking me as a hypocrit for responding to someone else's point.

Oh! And since I've devoled into a full on rant for this post, I still never saw a response from @Sabathius42 who accused me of lacking reading comprehension when I addressed his points about how utterly safe Phandolin was, by showing that the history of the town and the adventure setting he said "set the tone for how all small villages should be viewed" was vastly more lethal and fraught with danger than he seemed to remember.

So yeah, if you don't like the idea of handwaving magic explaining everything @Gammadoodler maybe you should talk to @Maxperson . That is their actual position that "The Gods" is the explanation that ends the debate.

 

[Maxperson]

Which halflings have. Unless you somehow think loot is "only money and gems"

No, they don't. They have nothing that a rich town doesn't have AND the rich town has gold, gems, art and such. Only an abject moron would go through the effort to track down a Halfling town and raid it instead of the easy and rich Human town that they already know about.

If your argument is that raiders have an IQ of 30, then just say that. Otherwise, admit that raiders just wouldn't bother and be done with it.

Food, people, finely made goods, glass figurines, ceramics, wines all of these are valuable loot that a raiding group could be after.

Food in rich town? Yes.
People in rich town? Yes.
Finely made goods in Halfling town? Iffy. In rich town? Yes.
Glass figurines in Halfling town? Unlikely. In rich town? Yes.
Ceramics in both towns? Yes. Better stuff in rich town? Yes.
Wines in both towns? Yes.
Gold, silver, copper, platinum , electrum, gems and jewelry in Halfling town? In miniscule amounts. In rich town? All over the place.

Take your IQ 30 raiders after a hard to reach Halfling town. Raiders in my world aren't brain dead and will go after the worthwhile targets.

And, even if, even if we assume that the gods blessed them to have minor illusion as a cantrip, you are comparing the ability of a novice mage to:

Perfectly hidden villages
increased food production
incredible luck that protects them

So I'm not comparing anything to your Strawman. Nobody has ever said perfectly hidden villages and you know that. And it's more than just minor illusion as Forest Gnomes are not the only ones to get magic.

Do you ever do anything except personal attacks? Seriously, you attack me constantly. Not my ideas, me.

If you didn't twist almost literally everything I say, I wouldn't come back at you like this. I've noted that you not only twist my words, but also the words of those others who are debating against you. Somehow, miraculously, you get the words of those on your side correct. At this point you no longer get the benefit of the doubt. It's deliberate.

Stop doing it and just respond to what I'm saying and we would be having a very different conversation.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It is a gotcha question, because nothing in any D&D book ever tells you dwarves do farm, or that they like farming.

Just as nothing in any D&D book ever tells you halflings can't fight, just that they don't like fighting.

Vulcans don't like fighting. Mimbari don't like fighting. Some people call them space elves, but when you compare them to the D&D races they are more like space halflings. D&D elves can be quite psychotic. I could imagine a D&D setting with fanatically peace-loving flower child elves, in which case there is less need for halflings. But most settings need a race with moral strength, not just martial strength.

Halflings are humanist. They represent the potential of humans to be better.

If you want a D&D world to be Grimdark, it's easy. Cut halflings. But if you want your D&D world to have hope to be something better, have halflings.

Except the book DOES tell us that they don't fight with real weapons. It has been posted near a dozen times on this thread.

I find that to be a problem. By the way, let us once more go over this "hope for something better" that halflings seem to represent. Gathering up the details of some various arguments.

They live far away from danger.
Their villages are protected by the bigger folk (specifically called out in the PHB)
Their Gods protect them from harm
Their gods make sure they always have enough food to eat
Everyone loves them, having better relations with these isolationist people than any other race in the world


So, if I want the hope of something better, humans and all the rest should retreat, leave their safety to the hands of others, pray for protection from hunger and strife from their gods and become so beloved and innocent that the world just decides to wipe away all evil for them.

Not striving and fighting to protect the precious things in the world. That just causes you problems. Not working hard to make life better for yourself and others, that just causing problems, you need to put yourself in a position to be protected by others. That's how you get a better future.

No thanks.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, they don't. They have nothing that a rich town doesn't have AND the rich town has gold, gems, art and such. Only an abject moron would go through the effort to track down a Halfling town and raid it instead of the easy and rich Human town that they already know about.

If your argument is that raiders have an IQ of 30, then just say that. Otherwise, admit that raiders just wouldn't bother and be done with it.

Food in rich town? Yes.
People in rich town? Yes.
Finely made goods in Halfling town? Iffy. In rich town? Yes.
Glass figurines in Halfling town? Unlikely. In rich town? Yes.
Ceramics in both towns? Yes. Better stuff in rich town? Yes.
Wines in both towns? Yes.
Gold, silver, copper, platinum , electrum, gems and jewelry in Halfling town? In miniscule amounts. In rich town? All over the place.

Take your IQ 30 raiders after a hard to reach Halfling town. Raiders in my world aren't brain dead and will go after the worthwhile targets.

Hey, you know what else is in a rich town?

Soldiers. Ones with real weapons and training how to use them. Soldiers who can fight back and kill the raiders.

Oh, and I love how we've suddenly gone from "halflings have other crafts, they make finely crafted good for trade like glass figurines and finely made goods" to "well, that is iffy and unlikely to be found in a halfling town" . I know you won't answer, but which is it, do halflings make high quality crafts or not?

But sure, have your raiders go after highly defended towns with the soldiers who can kill them, instead of the halflings who will hit them with sticks until they go away.

So I'm not comparing anything to your Strawman. Nobody has ever said perfectly hidden villages and you know that. And it's more than just minor illusion as Forest Gnomes are not the only ones to get magic.

Oh right, forest gnomes can talk to small animals. Do you have an explanation for the gods doing that too? Maybe the Gods taught the Rock Gnomes how to make clockwork toys?

If you didn't twist almost literally everything I say, I wouldn't come back at you like this. I've noted that you not only twist my words, but also the words of those others who are debating against you. Somehow, miraculously, you get the words of those on your side correct. At this point you no longer get the benefit of the doubt. It's deliberate.

Stop doing it and just respond to what I'm saying and we would be having a very different conversation.

Right. It is only me. Also, love how you completely skipped the very first part of my post, the one where I told you the premise you attacked was @Gammadoodler 's and not mine. Funny that. Almost like you immediately veered away from talking to anyone else other than me.

You know, thinking about it, other than making snide comments about me and my positions to Oofta... have you engaged anyone else, about any aspect of this? Have you discussed Gammadoodlers insistence on not having magical solutions to the problem, since you believe that "the gods did it" is the correct answer?

Or are you more concerned with accusing me of twisting everything and having 30 IQ raiders than defending your actual position?

 

[Minigiant]

No, they don't. They have nothing that a rich town doesn't have AND the rich town has gold

To be fair, if halflings don't grow past 1000 residents, they are a village. According to the DMG.

So you would be comparing a human village to a halfling village.

DMG says villages have a noble and a reeve who collects taxes. If halflings live out of the way, then it is more likely their tax collection would be more infrequent. So a halfling village would be richer than a human one.

 

[Maxperson]

Hey, you know what else is in a rich town?

Soldiers. Ones with real weapons and training how to use them. Soldiers who can fight back and kill the raiders.

Soldiers don't generally hang out in towns. Cities, sure. Raiders don't hit cities.

Oh, and I love how we've suddenly gone from "halflings have other crafts, they make finely crafted good for trade like glass figurines and finely made goods" to "well, that is iffy and unlikely to be found in a halfling town" . I know you won't answer, but which is it, do halflings make high quality crafts or not?

I never said finely crafted. Way to twist again.

Oh right, forest gnomes can talk to small animals. Do you have an explanation for the gods doing that too? Maybe the Gods taught the Rock Gnomes how to make clockwork toys?

You forgot, "Svirfneblin Magic Prerequisite: Gnome (deep gnome) You have inherited the innate spellcasting ability of your ancestors. This ability allows you to cast nondetection on yourself at will, without needing a material component. You can also cast each of the following spells once with this ability: blindness/deafness, blur, and disguise self. You regain the ability to cast these spells when you finish a long rest. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells."

And before you say, "But that's a feat and feats are optional!!!!," we know from the lore that deep gnomes have these abilities regardless. It's only PCs that might not have access to it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

By the way, the issue I've had with the halfling lore tends to go something like this.

"The Book says that halflings use Rocks and Sticks to fight of invaders, that is silly."

"No, that is only a religious exercise, they fight with normal weapons." / "They run away, no commoners have any weapons anyways" / "Halfling retired adventurers would give them better weapons to fight the invaders"

Most of the village are commoners: they are only proficient in sticks, and rocks are a readily available improvised weapon.
The difference appears to be that rather than back off and let the guards handle the invaders, most of the village pitches in. Their stories and games don't just inspire them, they mean that even the commoners have practiced some basic tactical maneuvers.

This is not a PC-style D&D combat by the rules, where both sides line up and roll attack and damage against each other until everyone on one side is dead. The halflings don't even need to kill any of the attacking force. They just need to make each raider think "Ream this. They might take my eye out with the next rock. I'm just going to back off and maybe just swipe a sheep from that field as I head back."