D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Gammadoodler]

Well, maybe you could be a little understanding that by even engaging with you, I've opened myself up to criticism, because according to the people I've been arguing with, your very premise that halflings can use practical skills is silly nonsense, as according to @Maxperson

At least I'm willing to take what you say as a good faith debate and discussion.

Now, I included acreage because of the size of a village. That is, actually, rather important to the question "how do you hide a village". I know this is a rather extreme and hyperbolic example, but what is easier to hide, a penny or a volkswagon? Yes, you could grow plants to hide, say, a gravestone, but an entire farm? That requires a lot more logistics.


Additionally, I was responding to @Paul Farquhar about "so your dwarves farm" and I broke down in broad terms what they do. Because Paul seemed to want to "gotcha" me over the fact that I assume dwarves farm, despite it not saying they farm, but I don't assume halflings have a well-armed militia because they fight monsters with Rocks and sticks. A point that @Oofta always takes and accuses me of assuming, because human commoners don't have weapons that they can use to defend themselves, so why is it a problem that halflings don't?

So yeah, I didn't give an acre by acre breakdown of the Mountain City of Harth, home of the dwarves since the formation of the world. Such a breakdown had nothing to do with Paul's intent or question, and would have been a waste of my time.

Oh, except you decided to jump on that and accuse me of being hypoctitical. Because the size of a village matters for how hard it is to hide, so I mentioned how big it would be, to show how hard "grow plants to hide it" would end up being as a practical matter, but I didn't mention how many acres of mushroom farms Dwarves have, accounting to the increased potential for 3-d space.


Do maybe people see why this is so frustrating right now? Everyone is hitting me with different expectations, different arguments, and different premises then attacking me as a hypocrit for responding to someone else's point.

Oh! And since I've devoled into a full on rant for this post, I still never saw a response from @Sabathius42 who accused me of lacking reading comprehension when I addressed his points about how utterly safe Phandolin was, by showing that the history of the town and the adventure setting he said "set the tone for how all small villages should be viewed" was vastly more lethal and fraught with danger than he seemed to remember.

So yeah, if you don't like the idea of handwaving magic explaining everything @Gammadoodler maybe you should talk to @Maxperson . That is their actual position that "The Gods" is the explanation that ends the debate.

So, to clarify the branches of the conversation I have been involved with and my position on them, and where we differ.

1. Halflings can survive adequately within the setting with a similar amount of fantasy handwaving as other races. (I was the person who originally brought up fantasy plants).
@Maxperson ,@Oofta , @Sabathius42 , and @Paul Farquhar seem to agree, though the nature of handwaving may differ.

You seem to be unwilling to extend that level of handwaving to halflings in any form, and have cited various fantasy logistical, philosophical, or economic "reasons" for this unwillingness.

2. Specifically related to gnomes vs. halflings. I asserted that, based on their core racial featuresand some extrapolation, it is not unreasonable that halflings could accomplish through skill what gnomes do through magic.

You went out of your way to "demonstrate" how this could not be so (though I haven't yet seen how you've demonstrated that the Gnomish version works: near as I can tell you've gotten to the word "illusionist" and stopped there)

And at various times folks have brought their own points of view or their own topical interests into the conversation, much in the same way that @tetrasodium and @Minigiant have.

As it relates to Paul and the dwarf thing, IIRC their original reply was to me. It did expand the discussion beyond halflings and gnomes, but it's not like this was a new strand of topic I was barging into, and it at least somewhat relates to both of the bullets above.

As it relates to Max and Oofta, we likely haven't gotten into side debates regarding stealth/safe halfling villages, because we all get to the same result, whatever the methods, and all of the methods boil down to some version of fantasy logic, and arguing fantasy logic is silly if the result is the same.

 

[Oofta]

@Chaosmancer, the book doesn't specify what most human commoners fight with, therefore the base assumption in default settings would be whatever's at hand. Which means basic farm implements, not specialized weapons. Some might have wood axes*, but that's about it. I don't see why they'd have much more than halfling commoners.

The other thing you keep ignoring or dismissing out of hand is that halflings are protected somehow, in a way that appears to be supernatural. People get turned around, lose their way, don't notice paths (which, having done a lot of hiking is not hard to do). Do they explicitly spell out how? No, a blessing from Yondalla is as good as any other or maybe it's just their innate luck.

Either accept the book as written or make your own version.

The base assumption is that they use the implements they have at hand along with group tactics to drive off the occasional single ogre that shows up once every few decades. Their villages are rarely targeted due being in non-strategic locations with little inherent value and a fair portion of luck. In addition, they state that they get along well with others so settling in reasonably peaceful lands makes a lot of sense.

Your version of halflings? Whatever makes sense for your campaign.

I don't see an issue.

*You may have mentioned sickles and/or scythes ... have you ever used either? I have and I don't see either one being much more effective than your basic club.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I have read some minutes ago after viking raids in the Iberian peninsule Christians and Muslims built walls on the coasts. I wonder why Englishs didn't the same.

Hafling villages are "rabbit's foot" or amulet of good luck for the feudal lords. The prestige of attract halfling settlers is higher than wearing expensive clothing and jewels. If halflings want to live in your feud is a sign you are a right ruler.

The ambiguity of age for childface halflings is perfect for media productions, enough cute and fun for children, but also enough good sense for mature audence. These little people could be very popular thanks the right CGI movie. Who would bet years ago Trolls franchise would be popular thanks Dreamworks movie?

Disney wants to produce a sequel of Willow movie. This means somebody will want a halfling spellcaster.

 

[tetrasodium]

So, to clarify the branches of the conversation I have been involved with and my position on them, and where we differ.

1. Halflings can survive adequately within the setting with a similar amount of fantasy handwaving as other races. (I was the person who originally brought up fantasy plants).
@Maxperson ,@Oofta , @Sabathius42 , and @Paul Farquhar seem to agree, though the nature of handwaving may differ.

You seem to be unwilling to extend that level of handwaving to halflings in any form, and have cited various fantasy logistical, philosophical, or economic "reasons" for this unwillingness.

2. Specifically related to gnomes vs. halflings. I asserted that, based on their core racial featuresand some extrapolation, it is not unreasonable that halflings could accomplish through skill what gnomes do through magic.

You went out of your way to "demonstrate" how this could not be so (though I haven't yet seen how you've demonstrated that the Gnomish version works: near as I can tell you've gotten to the word "illusionist" and stopped there)

And at various times folks have brought their own points of view or their own topical interests into the conversation, much in the same way that @tetrasodium and @Minigiant have.

As it relates to Paul and the dwarf thing, IIRC their original reply was to me. It did expand the discussion beyond halflings and gnomes, but it's not like this was a new strand of topic I was barging into, and it at least somewhat relates to both of the bullets above.

As it relates to Max and Oofta, we likely haven't gotten into side debates regarding stealth/safe halfling villages, because we all get to the same result, whatever the methods, and all of the methods boil down to some version of fantasy logic, and arguing fantasy logic is silly if the result is the same.

Your stuck on handwaving but there's a critical difference in the kind of handwaving being done. The dwarf type problems you note amount do things like how does a race solve internal construction/enviromental & food supply problems when they are known to:

• embrace advanced forms of government allowing them to accomplish many of the following things
• somehow train enough skilled artisans & maintain the knowledge needed to be known for the skill of their smiths miners & magic item crafters
• maintain a tradition of skilled warriors with a source of income not involving raiding to suggest they are employed as some form of soldier by the local government or sponsoring merchants
• maintain a tradition of (divine) spellcasters.
• engage in friendly trade that involves both dwarves & other races.

The answer is simply through application of those things. The only thing other races need to have imposed on them is "yea we sell things like that to people with money & buy finished goods from skilled artisans" & that is the case for nearly every race

Halflings by contrast:

• Avoid trade
• apparently are not interested in money
• live in out-of-the-way areas. Usually this means remote or far away from civilization
• avoid advanced forms of governance
• lack a tradition of arcane or divine spellcasters
• make a mockery out of the idea of taking martial traditions seriously
• Love new things & good food but apparently these interests don't lead to the embrace of trade in some starfish alien induced paradox
• for some reason are protected by other races but since the halflings don't recognize their government structure, avoid engaging in trade that's done for no reason
• Somehow don't get taken over by the more advanced races investing blood & coin into protecting them out of the goodness of their hearts

Those are problems that cause problems for each other and force every other race to embrace an internally conflicting set of motivations when their own motivations could involve halflings.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

OK, if the lore about halflings are beyond your limits of suspension of belief, then you only have to alter this. For example saying the halfling warriors would rather to be monster riders, and halfling spellcasters would rather to craft single-use magic items, as healing bondages, to help community. They don't worry about wealth, but saving enough money for future years of skinny cows ( = bad economic seasons). Their survival strategy is a low file to avoid the fights for the power among the taller races.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because I don't see halflings have the same attributes from designers that elves and dwarves had.

I figured that if halflings are as iconic as elves and dwarves, it would have similar aspects and foci as the other 3. But no halfling magic items. No halfling weapons. No halfling tools. No halfling weapon or magic styles. No halfling PRCs at the start. Fewer images of halfling mages and warriors. Fewer displays of serious halfling characters. Less display of halfling in world events. Less obligation to to fill in elements of halfling lore. Halflings don't even have rogue specialties anymore.

Now you can say "So. Halflings are different. We like them different." Sure, but Different is Different. I expected them to treat halflings somewhat like the other 3. Especially if they are iconic.

But halflings are not treated this way. They are treats like side characters. Protagonists and side characters are not on the same level. Halflings got B plotted.

That still makes absolutely no sense to me, but thanks for trying to explain it. At this point, it may be best to just accept that your basic framework for how you look at the D&D races is fundamentally different from a lot of other peoples’.

 

[Oofta]

Halflings by contrast:

• Avoid trade

Directly contradicted: "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders, but they do love to trade, especially with visitors who have interesting items to swap."

• apparently are not interested in money

They do not seek out wealth. So?

• live in out-of-the-way areas. Usually this means remote or far away from civilization

Most campaign worlds are not wall-to-wall people even in peaceful areas. "...they are adept at finding out-of-the-way places to settle in" doesn't mean wilderness.

• avoid advanced forms of governance

They settle in small villages of less than 100 and are lead by the most experienced individuals. Seems like as good a form of governance as any.

• lack a tradition of arcane or divine spellcasters

Most races do not.

• make a mockery out of the idea of taking martial traditions seriously

They have martial tactics using the implements and materials readily at hand. A "mockery"? Another strawman.

• Love new things & good food but apparently these interests don't lead to the embrace of trade in some starfish alien induced paradox

"Love new things" is directly contradicted: "Halflings rarely consider leaving the security of their villages, because they already have all the comforts they could want — food, drink, laughter, family, friends, and the satisfaction of doing a good day’s work." People have been eating good meals for millennia without exotic spices.

• for some reason are protected by other races but since the halflings don't recognize their government structure, avoid engaging in trade that's done for no reason
• Somehow don't get taken over by the more advanced races investing blood & coin into protecting them out of the goodness of their hearts

"Halflings are adept at fitting into a community of humans, dwarves, or elves, making themselves valuable and welcome." Yeah. They sound like terrible neighbors.

Add "For the most part, halflings aren’t the targets of warring nations. Their villages are of little tactical value, nor are they likely to be coveted by evil wizards or to become the object of wrath for some dark force. "

But this is yet another strawman you keep insisting on. Where does it say they don't recognize government structure outside of their village?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Your stuck on handwaving but there's a critical difference in the kind of handwaving being done. The dwarf type problems you note amount do things like how does a race solve internal construction/enviromental & food supply problems when they are known to:

• embrace advanced forms of government allowing them to accomplish many of the following things
• somehow train enough skilled artisans & maintain the knowledge needed to be known for the skill of their smiths miners & magic item crafters
• maintain a tradition of skilled warriors with a source of income not involving raiding to suggest they are employed as some form of soldier by the local government or sponsoring merchants
• maintain a tradition of (divine) spellcasters.
• engage in friendly trade that involves both dwarves & other races.

The answer is simply through application of those things. The only thing other races need to have imposed on them is "yea we sell things like that to people with money & buy finished goods from skilled artisans" & that is the case for nearly every race

Halflings by contrast:

• Avoid trade
• apparently are not interested in money
• live in out-of-the-way areas. Usually this means remote or far away from civilization
• avoid advanced forms of governance
• lack a tradition of arcane or divine spellcasters
• make a mockery out of the idea of taking martial traditions seriously
• Love new things & good food but apparently these interests don't lead to the embrace of trade in some starfish alien induced paradox
• for some reason are protected by other races but since the halflings don't recognize their government structure, avoid engaging in trade that's done for no reason
• Somehow don't get taken over by the more advanced races investing blood & coin into protecting them out of the goodness of their hearts

Those are problems that cause problems for each other and force every other race to embrace an internally conflicting set of motivations when their own motivations could involve halflings.

You’re forcing conflict where there is none.

They don’t make a mockery of martial traditions, that’s a nonsense argument that’s been debunked multiple times in this thread. (And also comes from a purely optional “hot take” oriented supplement that is full of nonsense regarding every race it talks about).

The rest is either disingenuous and/or hyperbolic misreading of the text in order to craft a conflict, or just describes real life communities that have existed in every era of history, on every continent. That is, small out of the way farm towns with no particular defense or political structure.

In fact, we know that halflings defend their homes fiercely, which is a step up from real world human out of the way small farm towns, historically.

 

[tetrasodium]

=

That still makes absolutely no sense to me, but thanks for trying to explain it. At this point, it may be best to just accept that your basic framework for how you look at the D&D races is fundamentally different from a lot of other peoples’.

d&d != "in the forgotten realms" but thanks for the badwrogfun dismissal showing why it's such a problem

 

[doctorbadwolf]

=

d&d != "in the forgotten realms" but thanks for the badwrogfun dismissal showing why it's such a problem

Bro, I wasn’t talking to you, so chill out, first of all.

Second, there is no dismissal in the post you quoted. The hell are you even talking about?