Why do we need thieves??

[A_Carrington]

Literally the worst take on this I can think of. No where near the mark.

Asserted without reasoning, dismissed without reasoning.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I did oversee that, but it doesnt change anything about my answer. Class-based games - like D&D - have the thiev as class because the distinction of character mechanics is done via classes. Skill-based games don't have this "problem" because they don't have any classes at all. It is a non-problem. I don't understand what gets discussed here. Class based games have classes, skill based games don't.

At the very least you need to acknowledge there are games that land well in a muddy ground in between. Any class based game with a skill system may well have no useful niche for thieves since most of what defines a thief is just specific skills. Its notable that they had to carve out spots for the D&D rogue across time to keep it at all distinct from any of the high-skill-point classes once those appeared.

 

[Baron Opal II]

At the very least you need to acknowledge there are games that land well in a muddy ground in between. Any class based game with a skill system may well have no useful niche for thieves since most of what defines a thief is just specific skills. Its notable that they had to carve out spots for the D&D rogue across time to keep it at all distinct from any of the high-skill-point classes once those appeared.

"Yes, but..."

When writing my bespoke version it was my intent at first to have Rogues be the "Everyman" class. They were a jack-of-trades class; survival was not through skill of arms, a Patron's favor, or knowledge of the arcane, but through grit and luck. The knew things, had contacts, and if you wanted a cat burglar or an assassin you picked Rogue and chose accordingly.

That class was awful. It was "muddy", not having a central theme or concept to lean into unlike the other classes. After thinking about it, I rewrote it to have the core of "urban stealth". The class doesn't have to be focused on crime necessarily. You could lean into the social aspects of it, or more into it's knowledge of mechanisms. But having that theme made it, and any other class, into a package of themed abilities that uses a skill system to interact with the environment.

That's also a statement that each class should have equivalent access to skills, and not lean on that aspect when you have a class driven system.

 

[pemerton]

The idea that there is some fundamental in-fiction difference between a thief and a warrior doesn't seem very plausible to me.

It's a conceit of PC building in the context of fantasy (or even semi-historical) RPGing: compared to the warrior build, the thief build trades away robustness of damage and defence, in exchange for increased mobility and infiltration capabilities.

In a RPG that makes robustness mostly a product of gear rather than personal capabilities - eg Classic Traveller - than the context for the trade-off goes away, and hence so does the distinction. Sure, an "Other" character in Classic Traveller will likely have Streetwise and Forgery but not Tactics and Leader, and vice versa for an "Army" character - but either can have good physical stats and good weapon skills.

 

[Jahydin]

@Staffan
I follow what you're saying and agree.

In the context of OP's question though, I'm still not seeing the relevance. The source of contention was that Thieves were just a collection of skills, no powers, so therefor should be removed. In systems where "thieves" are defined only by what skills they possess, then this wouldn't be an issue, right?

In systems like SW where templates are used for guidance, not much to debate if a "Thief" template is needed. The answer is "No" since it's just an example build.

 

[1QD]

At the very least you need to acknowledge there are games that land well in a muddy ground in between. Any class based game with a skill system may well have no useful niche for thieves since most of what defines a thief is just specific skills. Its notable that they had to carve out spots for the D&D rogue across time to keep it at all distinct from any of the high-skill-point classes once those appeared.

This was exactly my reasoning for taking them out. I do have a replacement but it covers many roles, not just thief. I just read a comment above that calls what they came up with muddy, and basically not focused enough. Im my circles at least, it is one of the most played professions and is received quite well. But that could merely be a design aspect rather than a definitive if it will work or not.

 

[cbwjm]

This was exactly my reasoning for taking them out. I do have a replacement but it covers many roles, not just thief.

I did briefly remove thieves from my 2e edit, replacing it with a light armoured skirmisher warrior (with the attack and hit dice of warriors), but after creating an expert class based on birthright's guilder, Ive added them back in as a subclass of the expert.

 

[1QD]

I did briefly remove thieves from my 2e edit, replacing it with a light armoured skirmisher warrior (with the attack and hit dice of warriors), but after creating an expert class based on birthright's guilder, Ive added them back in as a subclass of the expert.

I can see why some people might like them, the roleplaying aspect being a main consideration for me. DnD has romanticized the thief, or at least its players have. The mechanics of a thief as a stand alone boil down to skills that anyone can take. My replacement covers a jack of all trades with training in almost all of my worlds magics, but with limited ability. Skilled players can easily navigate that limitation with character build. Overall though I looked at it from a roleplaying POV. I picture gangs being popular. Training is done individually by members and minor magic is passed around to group members. A little of this, a little of that, a few skills here and there....Alternately, this could easily represent monastic life, where spiritual teachings act as introductions to other professions, such as wizards, or lastly Mystics, Wanders and caravanners going through life, existing with their own skills making a living whichever way they can. All of these roles fit with what you might pair up with as Rogue, and indeed that title is included, but does not overly focus on thieving itself, though the prof does in fact have thief like skills.

 

[Bill Zebub]

DnD has romanticized the thief

I think Robin Hood, Aladdin, Bilbo Baggins, Arsene Lupin, Charles Lytton, and Butch Cassidy may have also contributed just a tiny little bit.