D&D General why do we not have an arcane half caster?

[jmartkdr2]

Well, it's literally called "swordmage," and where are you getting "unarmored" from? I gave it both light & medium armor, and an INT bonus to AC.



It's not a 1/2 arcane caster if it doesn't have access to the arcane spell list. EK is a great subclass. It works just fine if you choose the right spells.

Why do we only want a swordmage, and not a more open and universal arcane half caster class? No other class is nearly as restrictive in terms of flavor. If we don't want the 30+ classes of 4e, the classes need to be a lot broader in scope.

As for why not the wizard list: because the EK is proof it doesn't really work. If it did, this thread wouldn't exist. The EK is pigeonholed into a character with a ton of rp potential that you can't realize because the spells that would help you do so either don't exist or aren't on your spell list. You can be effective, but that's not the gap that needs to be filled.

The wizard list is built for wizards, who are back-line controllers and blasters who focus on intelligence and are supposed to avoid combat. Which is the opposite of what we want the class to do.

Plus not all arcane casters use the wizard list, which is why it's called "the wizard spell list' and not ;the arcane spell list.' Every class gets it's own list. Which is why paladins use the paladin list and not the cleric list. If paladins use the cleric list, they wouldn't get any smite spells, (or elemental weapon) which are key to paladins playing like paladins.

 

[Undrave]

Level 1: If you are not using a shield, add 1/2 your INT bonus to AC, rounded up (maybe this should just be your INT bonus?). Gain 2 Wizard cantrips of your choice.

I think Cantrips should be an option like the Paladin and Ranger's fighting style that give them cantrip.

A possibility would be to have to pick between heavy armour or Cantrips. It's basically trading one feat for another.

I definitely don't think it should be limited to swords only. One of the main things I dislike is restricting players to one tiny vision of how they have to play the class, rather than how the player wants to build their character.

This really locks you in to a very specific take on the idea - unarmored, sword-only.

Also, don't use the wizard spell list. That's why the EK never worked in the first place: wizard spells are designed to let you play like a wizard, not a gish.

Agreed on both of you. What would a spell list for this guy look like?

 

[fearsomepirate]

Even so, there are lots of great visuals and themes using other weapons, and swords are ridiculously overplayed.

Fighter's, EK's, Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians, none of these are limited in the weapons they can technically use (even if there is some clear favoritism going on in Paladins and Rangers) and so if this class is meant to stand with the other martials, it needs to be able to use axes, hammers, spears, bows, ect.

I'm not trying to make a generic gish class; I'm trying to somewhat translate 4e's Swordmage to 5e. Swordmage is a defender class in 4e (i.e. it's a hard-to-kill melee class). Also, while paladins and barbarians can technically use longbows, javelins, and handaxes, their signature class offensive abilities don't apply to them.

So while I really did just pull this sketch out of my ass with my 4e book handy, on a second draft, sure, I could expand its weapon list to all martials, but I'd on the same token revise its abilities to apply only to melee weapon attacks. The swordmage does have a few abilities that extend its reach, but (a) I've given it wizard cantrips and spells, and (b) I think some of those could be reimagined as class-specific spells (e.g. Whirling Blade, Thunder Riposte, etc).

Maybe it should use INT for weapon attacks like the 4e swordmage, or maybe that's too 4e-ish.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Just giving it the wizard list doesn't work at all. If a swordmage official class arrived with only the wizard list, I'd just go paladin instead and reflavor as a swordmage.

Arcane spells don't have to mean copying the wizard list only. Paladin and cleric both have 'divine' themed lists, but with completely different spells. Likewise ranger and druid both have primal themed lists, but only ranger has the spells designed to mesh into martial combat.

If you're looking for a just something which can hit and then cast some arcane wizard spells while being a half caster, multiclass eldritch knight and wizard. Job done.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I think Cantrips should be an option like the Paladin and Ranger's fighting style that give them cantrip.

A possibility would be to have to pick between heavy armour or Cantrips. It's basically trading one feat for another.





Agreed on both of you. What would a spell list for this guy look like?

The 4e swordmage list would be a good pace to start.

Several spells at each level that work off weapon attack. Lots of mobility-boosting effects. Lots of reaction options (defensive and counter-attacking, for yourself and sometimes allies). Lots of elemental effects that synergize with weapons attacks. Some basic utility.

 

[Undrave]

The 4e swordmage list would be a good pace to start.

Several spells at each level that work off weapon attack. Lots of mobility-boosting effects. Lots of reaction options (defensive and counter-attacking, for yourself and sometimes allies). Lots of elemental effects that synergize with weapons attacks. Some basic utility.

And out of the spells we already DO have, which ones would you pick?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Do they need to be spells (per the D&D definition) or can the magic abilities take the format used for battlemaster/rune knight/arcane archer?

As for spells from any spell list:
the 3 blade cantrip, blade ward, true strike, a few ''attack roll'' ranged cantrips.
Smites spells from the paladin list.
Bow spells from the ranger list.
Entangling strikes, zephyr strike, steel wind strike, thunder step.
Misty Step, Far step, arcane door.
Self buff: Jump, Expeditious retreat, stone skins, magic weapon, elemental weapon, flame blade, shadow blade.
Shield, blink, mirror image, blur.
Some leveled ''attack roll'' spells: acid arrows, flaming rays etc

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It's not a 1/2 arcane caster if it doesn't have access to the arcane spell list. EK is a great subclass. It works just fine if you choose the right spells.

Frankly, I'm not sure if a half-caster is the best template for a Swordmage. My image of a swordmage is that they don't chant and wriggle their fingers and cast one spell in a combat then just beat on stuff with a weapon. Instead they are shooting fire out of their weapon as they attack with it, and are blinking through space as they move for the entire combat.

And look, I get it. Swords are cool. But can we not focus on yet more classes that exclusively use swords? We've got plenty of those

Which classes are those?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

And out of the spells we already DO have, which ones would you pick?

GFB, BB, Sword Burst, Ensnaring Strike, Zepher Strike, Searing Smite, Thunderous Smite, Elemental Weapon, Shield, Blur, Some of the less powerful blaster spells like burning hands, Detect Magic, Magic Weapon, Misty Step, Dispel Magic, Banishment, Steel Wind Strike.

 

[TwoSix]

Frankly, I'm not sure if a half-caster is the best template for a Swordmage. My image of a swordmage is that they don't chant and wriggle their fingers and cast one spell in a combat then just beat on stuff with a weapon. Instead they are shooting fire out of their weapon as they attack with it, and are blinking through space as they move for the entire combat.

MFOV's Warmage (found here) is basically a warrior that uses cantrips as their primary attack, and gets a bunch of warlock style invocations that boost their cantrips. It's a good template for a non-casting swordmage.