Why Do You Hate An RPG System?

So, I'm sorry, but this does not suggest to me that what I fund was a problem was dealt with - in early editions, Deckers required the GM to, in essence, run a separate little matrix adventure for them. The spotlight sharing issues were severe. You telling me that happened every session does not suggest "no problem" to me.

Over and above any question about mechanical overhead, at least the 5e thing of making the Decker work in conjunction with other actions instead of entirely separate subgames seemed to help in the one session of it I ran.
 

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So, I'm sorry, but this does not suggest to me that what I fund was a problem was dealt with - in early editions, Deckers required the GM to, in essence, run a separate little matrix adventure for them. The spotlight sharing issues were severe. You telling me that happened every session does not suggest "no problem" to me.
OK, I get what you're saying. Those days of mini-adventures and sidequests are pretty much over. The reason I brought up Mages and Astral Projection is the mechanics are the same, they just affect different realms. No one ever complained that Astral Projection was ruining the game, slowing it down, or forcing the entire group to wait while the Mage was on a sidequest. Now magic and tech are on par with one another because they use the same mechanics. A fireball has the same mechanics as a rocket launcher. Rather than choose to fight, stealth, or defend in the real world, you do it in the Matrix. A Decker can make a disarm attack against a cybernetic weapon like a Street Samurai except their methods are different. Since everyone is on the same initiative everyone gets a turn. There's no need to stop what you're doing to play a separate game with the Decker.

Thomas Shey calling the previous iterations of Shadowrun's Decker rules "system overhead" is a great description of what was happening in past editions.
 

aramis erak

Legend
The problem is that a fair amount of the extent fandom would do some pretty heavy pushback if it was stripped down much in the process, and there's always a dynamic as to whether someone wants to potentially lose significant amounts of extent market to potentially get a different market (which may or may not be larger) all needing significant work.

Basically, it almost never seems worth the effort.
Shadowrun: Anarchy was supposed to be just such an attempt...
It seems to have found a following, tho' I'm not in it.

What amazes me is that it's maintained its audience for so long. And that no other serious Cyberpunk/Fantasy hybrids have arisen as serious contenders for the marketspace.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
OK, I get what you're saying. Those days of mini-adventures and sidequests are pretty much over. The reason I brought up Mages and Astral Projection is the mechanics are the same, they just affect different realms. No one ever complained that Astral Projection was ruining the game, slowing it down, or forcing the entire group to wait while the Mage was on a sidequest.

There is a difference - when a mage astrally projects, they are in a different realm, but it is generally analogous to the physical space, and the usual point of going astral so was to deal with something that would impact the physical space.

In early editions, matrix runs were into spaces not generally analogous, and often the work there did not impact the rest of the party in real time. A lot of them were effectively matrix dungeon crawls to get information, done while the rest of the party just sat around waiting.

Now magic and tech are on par with one another because they use the same mechanics.

I find that less appealing, actually.

But, it is all neither here nor there, as I'm unlikely to pick up Anarchy, or otherwise play the game in the near to medium future. By the time I'd be considering it, there might be yet another ruleset out there.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Things I am not a fan of include:

  1. Games that reward playing to a fairly static character concept. Fate/D&D 5e Inspiration are big offenders here.
  2. Games that expect you to preplan character narrative arcs. Scion Second Edition and 7th Sea Second Edition are the biggest offenders here.
  3. Games where you have to spend currency to take advantage of fictional positioning you already have.
  4. Games with substantial win buttons and/or post roll modification. Gumshoe, Exalted Second Edition and Fate are pretty big offenders here.
  5. Diceless games. Narrative tension is really important to me.
I would not say I hate any games, but there are some games that I'm glad exist for other people. Fate, Gumshoe and 7th Sea 2nd Edition top that list.
 
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Shadowrun: Anarchy was supposed to be just such an attempt...
It seems to have found a following, tho' I'm not in it.

Notice it is, in practice, in addition to the main line, not as a replacement.

(Of course I haven't heard the greatest things about SR6e, either).

What amazes me is that it's maintained its audience for so long. And that no other serious Cyberpunk/Fantasy hybrids have arisen as serious contenders for the marketspace.

Its actually surprisingly hard for an established game to be unseated, per se.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Notice it is, in practice, in addition to the main line, not as a replacement.

(Of course I haven't heard the greatest things about SR6e, either).



Its actually surprisingly hard for an established game to be unseated, per se.
It can be reasonably hypothesized that Shadowrun Fans simply like to gripe about the game to levels far exceeding their actual real issues.
As for unseating? Yeah, I can kinda see that point. But SR doesn't have any in-genre competition; all the other "established fanbases" generally have two or more games in the genres.
 

Herne'sSon

Villager
If I don't like a game for some system-related reason, I just move on to something else.

The only games I'd say I "hate" are more games I won't play because I have issues with the designers/publishers. One game line specifically I just won't touch, because of the awful way the current publishers treated good friends of mine. Sad, too, because the games they now publish used to be some of my favorite RPGs. But the actions of the current owners have infected the way I think about the games and ruined any good will I once had.
 

It can be reasonably hypothesized that Shadowrun Fans simply like to gripe about the game to levels far exceeding their actual real issues.
As for unseating? Yeah, I can kinda see that point. But SR doesn't have any in-genre competition; all the other "established fanbases" generally have two or more games in the genres.

Its a little specialized when you get down to it; that sort of cyberpunk/urban fantasy fusion doesn't have much fictional precedent, after all.

The closest it gets is other kitchen-sink-ish games like TORG.
 

There is a difference - when a mage astrally projects, they are in a different realm, but it is generally analogous to the physical space, and the usual point of going astral so was to deal with something that would impact the physical space.

In early editions, matrix runs were into spaces not generally analogous, and often the work there did not impact the rest of the party in real time. A lot of them were effectively matrix dungeon crawls to get information, done while the rest of the party just sat around waiting.
Our phones have GPS, Bluetooth, and Wi-Fi, not to mention a web connection. Anyone who knows how can scan the internet for public printers. None of that is science fiction. Augmented reality is cutting edge technology today. It's the norm in Shadowrun.
 


Emirikol

Adventurer
When I hate a system:
* Not intuitive. I dont need a friggin rube goldberg.
When the writers think youre going to use their system for anything other then an occasional one-shot. I NEVER need levels 1-20 for your system Sorry.
 

Thread necro!

The funny part is, I read the headline and my first thought was, "If I have to roll 2d20 for every action, and it's not because I have Advantage."

Then I clicked and realized that 2d20 was the inspiration for the thread.
 


Lycurgon

Adventurer
There is only one game I hated.
M.E.R.P - Middle Earth Role Playing. Spend a couple of hours looking at options and making a character. Then 5 minute of playing the game we see some Orcs at a distance in a forest. They get to go first before we could do anything. First attack of the game the Orc throws a spear, it crits and goes through my characters neck, permanently paralysed. Game over for me. The other characters followed pretty quickly.Game over for everyone.
We tried again and with new characters lasted a bit longer but didn't make it past the first session.
 

There is only one game I hated.
M.E.R.P - Middle Earth Role Playing. Spend a couple of hours looking at options and making a character. Then 5 minute of playing the game we see some Orcs at a distance in a forest. They get to go first before we could do anything. First attack of the game the Orc throws a spear, it crits and goes through my characters neck, permanently paralysed. Game over for me. The other characters followed pretty quickly.Game over for everyone.
We tried again and with new characters lasted a bit longer but didn't make it past the first session.

M.E.R.P. might be the game everybody is thinking of, in the thread about RPGs having too much prose, when they say that some games are acquired for reading, not playing.
 

MGibster

Legend
Games that expect you to preplan character narrative arcs. Scion Second Edition and 7th Sea Second Edition are the biggest offenders here.
This was one of my biggest annoyances with D&D 3rd edition. Prestige classes seemed like a great concept to me when they were introduced. But for many prestige classes, I had to essentially map my characters progression from level 1 in order to qualify for the class later leaving no room for spontaneity and being able to perhaps move into a prestige class based on what happened during the game. Sorry, but you didn't take the Endurance Feat when you could have so you can't go into this class.
 

Lycurgon

Adventurer
M.E.R.P. might be the game everybody is thinking of, in the thread about RPGs having too much prose, when they say that some games are acquired for reading, not playing.
In University I met someone that loved M.E.R.P. and had played heaps of it as a kid. I asked how their group coped with the lethality of the game. He admitted that they just didn't roll anything under 75%, if they rolled low they just rerolled. I had to laugh.
 

Crusadius

Adventurer
There is only one game I hated.
M.E.R.P - Middle Earth Role Playing. Spend a couple of hours looking at options and making a character. Then 5 minute of playing the game we see some Orcs at a distance in a forest. They get to go first before we could do anything. First attack of the game the Orc throws a spear, it crits and goes through my characters neck, permanently paralysed. Game over for me. The other characters followed pretty quickly.Game over for everyone.
We tried again and with new characters lasted a bit longer but didn't make it past the first session.
MERP was a simpler version of Rolemaster. I've had similar happen to me with Rolemaster - spent an entire session creating characters, and next session everyone dies. This did not make me hate Rolemaster (nor MERP), just that these games should not be played as if the characters are high-level D&D characters.
 

dragoner

solisrpg.com
There is only one game I hated.
M.E.R.P - Middle Earth Role Playing. Spend a couple of hours looking at options and making a character. Then 5 minute of playing the game we see some Orcs at a distance in a forest. They get to go first before we could do anything. First attack of the game the Orc throws a spear, it crits and goes through my characters neck, permanently paralysed. Game over for me. The other characters followed pretty quickly.Game over for everyone.
We tried again and with new characters lasted a bit longer but didn't make it past the first session.
Yeah, Orcs are pretty tough in MERP, a lot more than in D&D; later, I converted our MERP game to AD&D. I had similar thing happen in Morrow Project, we all made our characters, and then got in a radiation area, and just died.
 

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