Why do you think warforged = robots?

[rossik]

dunno.. to me, warforged and some other eberron aspects seems a little final fantasy (the one with squall, dont remember the number).

dont get me wrong, i loved the game, but i would not mix it with MY d&d

 

[howandwhy99]

To OP: I was thinking about this. It's actually a fine line.

First off, Warforged are:
1. human-made constructions (or often human-made)
2. humanoid-shaped
3. and can think for themselves.

I thought that fit the definition of robot.

But then I wouldn't think of an awakened, animated object as a robot.

However,
1. make them look too human (or humanoid race playable),
2. and also make them a segment of civilized society
= and most anyone is going to think ROBOT when they encounter them.

There are soooo many other forms an awakened, animated object could take. Eberron has a good reason for making them all uniform, but "uniform mass production" beggars the mind to be called Modernity.

Throw in significant differences for every playable race-type called Warforged and create a vast number of completely different "magic-made" monsters and it becomes more plausible.

I mean, really. The war crafts they ride, the weapons they use, the places they inhabit are all NOT intelligent, but the 100% uniform humanoid form IS? It's hard to believe they weren't originally conceived as Robots. What other mental pathway arrives at this without conceiving any other?

 

[Hamburger Mary]

I mean really. The war crafts they ride, the weapons they use, the places they inhabit are all NOT intelligent, but the 100% uniform humanoid form IS? It's hard to believe they weren't originally conceived as Robots. What other mental pathway arrives at these without conceiving any other?

Funny you should ask...

Ironically, the anime character that looks the most like a warforged (Alphonse Elric in the picture above) is actually a human. They stuffed up a transformation and are trying to find a way to return him to his original body.

Per the setting, what most troubles the kalashtar is that the warforged have souls, and that no mortal agency should be able to create a soul... hence their belief that the souls aren't being created, but are rather coming from someone else. One of the common theories that's been advanced is that they are vessels for the souls of the dead; Dolurrh wipes away the memories of the dead, so they don't remember their past... at least, not yet. From this point, you simply take the principle of magical correspondence: the reason the warforged that looks like a human has a soul and the one that looks like a seige engine doesn't is because the humanoid vessel is the only mystically suitable host for the humanoid soul.

It's easy to look at a picture you don't like and assume "That's a dumb copout". But there's more depth to the setting than people assume. Warforged aren't simply mass-produced mechanical men. People haven't forgotten how to build them. They have a role in the world that stretches out across thousands of years and multiple planes. Their current situation has both moral and political ramifications. It's not just "Hey, we want to let players be k3wl killer robots." The warforged are integral to many of the core themes of Eberron: magic used for war; the impact of war on civilization; problems that don't always have good solutions.

Again: don't like sentient golems as a race? It's your chocolate and your peanut butter. No one should force you to do anything you don't want to do, any more than they'll make me use whisper gnomes in my game. But it seems to me that many of the negative reactions are based on superficial knowledge, as opposed to understanding the role they actually play in the world.

 

[howandwhy99]

Funny you should ask...


Per the setting, what most troubles the kalashtar is that the warforged have souls, and that no mortal agency should be able to create a soul... hence their belief that the souls aren't being created, but are rather coming from someone else. One of the common theories that's been advanced is that they are vessels for the souls of the dead; Dolurrh wipes away the memories of the dead, so they don't remember their past... at least, not yet. From this point, you simply take the principle of magical correspondence: the reason the warforged that looks like a human has a soul and the one that looks like a seige engine doesn't is because the humanoid vessel is the only mystically suitable host for the humanoid soul.

It's easy to look at a picture you don't like and assume "That's a dumb copout". But there's more depth to the setting than people assume. Warforged aren't simply mass-produced mechanical men. People haven't forgotten how to build them. They have a role in the world that stretches out across thousands of years and multiple planes. Their current situation has both moral and political ramifications. It's not just "Hey, we want to let players be k3wl killer robots." The warforged are integral to many of the core themes of Eberron: magic used for war; the impact of war on civilization; problems that don't always have good solutions.

Again: don't like sentient golems as a race? It's your chocolate and your peanut butter. No one should force you to do anything you don't want to do, any more than they'll make me use whisper gnomes in my game. But it seems to me that many of the negative reactions are based on superficial knowledge, as opposed to understanding the role they actually play in the world.

That's actually quite interesting. My own preference is to leave the question of having souls as unknown and ambiguous, but it sounds like the fact of warforged having 'em is causing ambiguity enough. Very cool.

Warforged may be what are for very good, in-game reasons. But it doesn't negate my first list of 3. They aren't a sufficient identification IMO either, but together they mean warforged will frequently be taken as robots by any who do not know the rationale. That'll be pretty much everyone coming to the setting for the first time.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

But it doesn't negate my first list of 3. They aren't a sufficient identification IMO either, but together they mean warforged will frequently be taken as robots by any who do not know the rationale. That'll be pretty much everyone coming to the setting for the first time.

Ah, gotcha - I should have paid more attention to the fact that you were specifically addressing the OP's question. Good points. I'm saying that there's depth to the warforged that people don't see at a cursory glance - but that obviously won't affect first impressions, which is what you're talking about. My bad.

 

[Rechan]

I'm just going to quote two people for emphasis because I really agree with what they're saying, and expand upon it.

Indeed, warforgeds have wooden fibers for muscles, and have parts made of stone, and *some* metal plates over them (which may or may not have adamantine, silver, cold iron or mithril mixed in). And all of these materials are created out of thin air with something akin to the fabricate spell, so the bodies aren't assembled and then animated. They're created wholecloth from magic.

Absolutely. This "Warforged are made of all artificial parts" is wrong. The organic material is roots, wood, and stone. Warforged are basically men with wood skin, roots for guts/joints, a little stone here and there, and metal slapped on as a protective coating. Aside from the metal and the stone bits, it's all organic, baby.

And more specifically, they are not built. Someone activates the Magic Thingie that casts Fabrication, and it poops out a fully formed warforged from thin air.

Also, Warforged are not "I don't know who I am and I'm lost". Warforged have a purpose, they know who they are, it's just that "Who they are" does not fit in the world that they are now in. It would be more appropriate to Slaves, who have always been slaves, whose parents and grandparents were slaves, are suddenly handed freedom. They don't know what to DO with themselves now.

It seems like I just had this discussion with some guy (usernamed Steampunk) not long ago. What is your definition of steampunk? Nothing in Eberron is steam powered, and nothing fits the -punk dystopian worldview. Without either steam or punk, I'm really struggling to see how this is in any way steampunk.

Indeed. As someone else said: "Eberron doesn't have magic and technology - it lacks TECHNOLOGY and has magic filling in the place."

While this may seem like a semantic distinction, it's an important one. THere is no guns or gunpowder. Electricity? Nope. Mass-produced CONTINUAL FLAME items provide light. The Lightning Rail doesn't run on electricity or steam; electric energy basically picks it up off the ground so that the Air Elemental that powers it can push it forward.

 

[Arkhandus]

From this point, you simply take the principle of magical correspondence: the reason the warforged that looks like a human has a soul and the one that looks like a seige engine doesn't is because the humanoid vessel is the only mystically suitable host for the humanoid soul.

Uh, golems are animated by earth elementals, and occasionally water elementals (as with Nimblewrights). But those elementals aren't normally humanoid in form; how could they be bound to humanoid-shaped vessels when other spirits cannot be bound to vessels that don't fit their previous form? And what about the fact that Reincarnate can bring creatures back to life in different bodies, even animal bodies, without difficulty (it's even lower level than Resurrection)?

Warforged would be less obviously identifiable as robots (magic robots, but robots nonetheless) if they were not so distinctly humanoid and human-like.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

And what about the fact that Reincarnate can bring creatures back to life in different bodies, even animal bodies, without difficulty?

What about it? I'm not talking about reincarnation or golems. I'm talking specifically about warforged. One of the key principles of the warforged is that unlike golems, even the people who are creating them don't really understand how they work. They aren't choosing to make the warforged in humanoid shape; humanoid shape is the only form they've been able to produce.

I'm not talking about some sort of universal principle of magic; I'm talking about a fundamental aspect of the warforged. They can only be made in humanoid shape. They appear to have souls. Which has led the kalashtar to conclude that they have humanoid souls.

Warforged would be less obviously identifiable as robots (magic robots, but robots nonetheless) if they were not so distinctly humanoid and human-like.

I acknowledge this as a valid answer to the OP's question: "People think that they are robots because we're conditioned as a culture to think 'robot' when we see a humanoid figure made of metal." However, for the reasons given above, I'd argue that once you have a deeper understanding of the setting, their humanoid appearance is once of the things that distinguishes them from robots (in my eyes). IMO, one of the key attributes of a robot is that it is a being designed for a purpose... designed to serve the needs of the creator. If it would be more useful for my robot to have treads, he'll have treads. I certainly wouldn't give him a sense of taste or the ability to feel pain - how would either of these things prove useful? The warforged have a sense of taste and can feel pain, and cannot be designed with tracks - because their shape isn't a function of the designer's intent. It's the only shape that they can be made it.

So I see them as more "artificial humanoid vessels for souls of the dead" than "robots" - though that's certainly an opinion requiring insight into the setting, and not one anyone would get on first glance.

 

[Eric Tolle]

Warforged are Version 2.0 of the D&D races.

Soon all player characters will be upgraded to warforged.

Any who refuse will be deleted.







....couldn't resist. Too much Dr. Who, recently.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Robot = any mechanical device designed to do the work of man.

Substitute "construct" for "mechanical device" in D&D terms, and yep, sounds like a warforged to me.

Constructs absolutely have a role in fantasy ... but I prefer them to be mysterious implacable foes rather than player robots. Astromech droids in D&D, anyone?