D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[Imaro]

You can build a fighter who is really not that bad in the other two pillars, because any warm body (straight 10 stats, no proficiencies) is, thanks to Bounded Accuracy, really not that bad at any check, and checks apply in all pillars. In fact, you can't avoid doing that with any class, it's the base-line. Backgrounds will make you competent at another couple skills and maybe the perk will come up once in a while. But, again, that's just part of the base-line, every PC has their Background.

Bolded for emphasis... you've made claims like this throughout this discussion... but they are patently false. Let's compare the range between someone who has maxed out an ability and taken training in a relevant skill vs. one with a 10 and no proficiency...


[TABLE="width: 500"][TR][TD]LVL[/TD][TD] MaxAttribute+Prof[/TD][TD] MaxAttribute[/TD][TD]10Attribute+Prof[/TD][TD]10Attribute[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]1[/TD][TD]+6[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]+2[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]5[/TD][TD]+7[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]+3[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]9[/TD][TD]+8[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]13[/TD][TD]+9[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]+5[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]17[/TD][TD]+10[/TD][TD]+4[/TD][TD]+6[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]Maybe I'm doing something wrong but tell me again how anyone with a 10 attribute and no proficiency has a chance to accomplish the same things as anyone else...

So even at first level the 20 attribute + prof character can complete tasks in the very hard range and will never fail a a difficulty of very easy... the 10 has no chance to tackle a very hard task and can fail at very easy tasks...

By level 17 a character with 20 attribute and prof has a chance to do the nearly impossible (DC 30)... Can someone with a 10 accomplish the same... can they even accomplish a very hard task? No. Even with advantage they can never accomplish either.

EDIT: Now I understand why the wizard is wasting spells to climb and jump, he doesn't have a choice... he's probably dumped strength so has a -1 instead of zero and is untrained... He can fail at the simplest of climbs and can't even make a hard check...

 

[Imaro]

What other classes have indomitable, remarkable athlete, or action surge? Or are you using a different definition of unique than the rest of us?

"not as good as I like" =/= "not unique", just an FYI

The meanings of unique and competent seem to have become quite fluid in this discussion...

 

[Ashkelon]

The meanings of unique and competent seem to have become quite fluid in this discussion...

Well, here let me clarify for you.

Unique means having unique capabilities. Remarkable athlete is not unique. Anyone can already make untrained skill checks. Getting a small bonus to untrained STR/DEX/CON checks is therefor not unique.

Indomitable (when used outside of combat) only serves to lessen the severity of failure. Well, lots of things do that. Lay on hands healing, barbarian danger sense, paladin auras, magical healing, rogue's uncanny dodge, and much more. Therefor it is not a capability unique to the fighter.

Action surge is unique, but has very limited use outside combat.

Bonus feats aren't unique, as anyone can learn the same feats as a fighter anyway.

As for competent, I don't think people are saying fighters aren't competent (we'll nobody but you guys and your strawman argument). People are saying that fighters aren't any more competent than any other random PC. Any PC can take a high strength and proficiency in athletics. Hell, I have seen a wizard with an 18 Strength and training in athletics before. In that situation, the wizard was just as competent as the fighter in accomplishing STR related exploration tasks.

What we are asking for is for fighter's to have unique ways to meaningfully contribute to exploration challenges. We want there to be non-combat situations where the party is actually glad to have a fighter, as opposed to a bard with expertise in STR, a 14 STR cleric, a moon druid, or any random PC with a decent STR and proficiency in athletics.

 

[Corpsetaker]

Well, here let me clarify for you.

Unique means having unique capabilities. Remarkable athlete is not unique. Anyone can already make untrained skill checks. Getting a small bonus to untrained STR/DEX/CON checks is therefor not unique.

Indomitable (when used outside of combat) only serves to lessen the severity of failure. Well, lots of things do that. Lay on hands healing, barbarian danger sense, paladin auras, magical healing, rogue's uncanny dodge, and much more. Therefor it is not a capability unique to the fighter.

Action surge is unique, but has very limited use outside combat.

Bonus feats aren't unique, as anyone can learn the same feats as a fighter anyway.

As for competent, I don't think people are saying fighters aren't competent (we'll nobody but you guys and your strawman argument). People are saying that fighters aren't any more competent than any other random PC. Any PC can take a high strength and proficiency in athletics. Hell, I have seen a wizard with an 18 Strength and training in athletics before. In that situation, the wizard was just as competent as the fighter in accomplishing STR related exploration tasks.

What we are asking for is for fighter's to have unique ways to meaningfully contribute to exploration challenges. We want there to be non-combat situations where the party is actually glad to have a fighter, as opposed to a bard with expertise in STR, a 14 STR cleric, a moon druid, or any random PC with a decent STR and proficiency in athletics.

What exactly are you looking for?

You have been given multiple examples of how all the classes can function in all three pillers and yet you dismiss them. It's like you don't want to be proven wrong, you just want to continue this discussion. You are clearly not going to change your mind no matter how much evidence you are presented.

The game was not designed around everyone having single individual powers. If that's what you are looking for then you are playing the wrong game. This is not a bug but a feature of the game. You still haven't given any examples as to what it is you can't specifically do with a fighter.

 

[Imaro]

You are clearly not going to change your mind no matter how much evidence you are presented.

You've pretty much summed it up right here...

 

[Tony Vargas]

On top of that indomitable is generally more useful in combat, so wasting it on a trap is usually a poor choice.

'Remarkable' Athlete is about the only one that isn't much more applicable/effective in combat than out, yes.

They provide a defensive boost when you fail to overcome an obstacle. That is very different than being able to actually contribute to the success of a non-combat challenge.

For that matter, the fighter's Second Wind and d10 HD would be 'useful' in surviving botched out of combat tasks, like falling when you try to climb or setting off traps.

Remarkable athlete doesn't do all that much, Before level 17 it is a +2 to your untrained skill checks.

Don't bards get an even broader 'good at untrained skills' thing? Besides, proficiency is just better than RA, and RA doesn't stack with it.

Then there's Action Surge, which is extremely potent in combat, and pretty minor out of combat, so unless you can be sure of a short rest before the next fight, it'd have to be pretty important to get in that extra Dash action to climb another 15' or whatever. And, of course, Cunning Action is also an extra action, not nearly so potent in-combat, but about as useful out-of-combat - and at-will, not 1hr-'short'-rest-recharge.

 

[Ashkelon]

What exactly are you looking for?

You have been given multiple examples of how all the classes can function in all three pillers and yet you dismiss them. It's like you don't want to be proven wrong, you just want to continue this discussion. You are clearly not going to change your mind no matter how much evidence you are presented.

The game was not designed around everyone having single individual powers. If that's what you are looking for then you are playing the wrong game. This is not a bug but a feature of the game. You still haven't given any examples as to what it is you can't specifically do with a fighter.

I actually gave examples of things I think would be fitting and interesting for a mid to high level fighter to do in post #322. Here is a short recap:

*Getting expertise in athletics or treating a roll of 9 or less as a 10 for Athletics checks would be fitting and flavorful.
*Doubling the damage they deal to objects and structures is another such ability that could work.
*Flat out giving them a climb and swim speed so they don't need to make athletics checks to do those tasks would work too.
*Doubling their jumping distance so they could make amazing leaps would be cool.
*Doubling their carrying capacity so they can move large terrain would be amazing.

But the issue was never what can't a fighter accomplish. It was what can a fighter accomplish that some other character could not accomplish equally well if not better. I get that some people want the fighter to be at the bottom rung in terms of non-combat capability. I however would like for the party to every now and then say, "wow, glad we brought a fighter along to help us get past this (Insert exploration related challenge here)."

As things are, pretty much anyone with a decent strength score and training in athletics can contribute just as much to exploration as a fighter. All classes have access to the exact same non-combat abilities the fighter does (feats and skills). That effectively means the fighter is at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to any pillar other than combat. Basically every class gains some features that contribute either meaningfully or uniquely to non-combat scenarios such as spells, rituals, cantrips, expertise, etc.

 

[Pickles III]

Never been caught in a blizzard? Never been caught in a landslide? Never had a bridge collapse? Never been in a sinking ship and drowning?

Apparently he's never played in Dark Sun before either...go figure.

At the risk of swirling down an overly specific drain hole these are usually narrated is such a way that they do not lead to massive HP loss by multiple characters.

(I am playing Dark Sun right now & of course as it's 4e there are lots of effects that drain healing surges but not much direct HP loss, plus once you have travelled the desert a few times it is becomes interesting & gets the red line on a map treatment more).

Action surge while seeming fantastic is not that good out of combat. Actions are just not usually that scarce of a resource outside of the round system.

Remarkable athlete is anything but.

I take back the EK being good at exploration too - his limited access to non evocation/abjuration spells is pretty restrictive. It would be an easy house rule but since most of my 5e play has been in Adventurer's League that is not an option for me.

This does not make me think the fighter is terrible because of his out of combat utility. I am pretty sure he is the least effective out of combat class but he can still do stuff.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Well, here let me clarify for you.

Unique means having unique capabilities. Remarkable athlete is not unique. Anyone can already make untrained skill checks. Getting a small bonus to untrained STR/DEX/CON checks is therefor not unique.

Unique means just what the dictionary says it means, and in this case an ability that no other class has. That list of abilities that only a fighter has? Those are unique. By the very defiintion of what the word means. You can't just selectively use a modified definition when it suits you. By your logic, something like Bardic Inspiration isn't unique because "anyone makes attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks". And many classes (including the fighter) have ways of increasing those checks just like Bardic Inspiration does. So nobody has a unique ability?

Bonus feats aren't unique, as anyone can learn the same feats as a fighter anyway.

Did you not read my post above? It isn't the feat itself that's unique, it's the ability to have more of them than any other PC is unique. And those bonus feats are a really big deal because they offer a lot of stuff that makes the fighter extremely competent in out of combat actives, as I listed above.

As for competent, I don't think people are saying fighters aren't competent (we'll nobody but you guys and your strawman argument).

It's not a strawman if that's the argument you made when you said a commoner can do the same as a fighter. A commoner isn't very competent, especially in the context of comparing them to actual classes (which is what this conversation is about). This has been pointed out more than once, with hard actual numbers.

I'm sorry your biases aren't being confirmed here. But that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

 

[Imaro]

I actually gave examples of things I think would be fitting and interesting for a mid to high level fighter to do in post #322. Here is a short recap:

*Getting expertise in athletics or treating a roll of 9 or less as a 10 for Athletics checks would be fitting and flavorful.

Not unique... other classes get expertise...

*Doubling the damage they deal to objects and structures is another such ability that could work.

Not unique... other classes have ways of doubling their damage output...

*Flat out giving them a climb and swim speed so they don't need to make athletics checks to do those tasks would work too.

Not unique... other classes can automatically do things

*Doubling their jumping distance so they could make amazing leaps would be cool.
*Doubling their carrying capacity so they can move large terrain would be amazing.

Surpassed by Jump spell and tenser's... so yeah all these fail the standards you have been holding the fighter's abilities to...

But the issue was never what can't a fighter accomplish. It was what can a fighter accomplish that some other character could not accomplish equally well if not better. I get that some people want the fighter to be at the bottom rung in terms of non-combat capability. I however would like for the party to every now and then say, "wow, glad we brought a fighter along to help us get past this (Insert exploration related challenge here)."

Can you give an example of an ability like this??