D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[TwoSix]

Teleport, planeshift, forcage, contingency, simulacrum, mass suggestion, tons of amazing control spells.

Oh yea, I forgot simulacrum.

 

[Malmuria]

All Dead Generations had an interesting post related to this topic recently. In it, the author quotes Gygax in 1976:

“It is reasonable to calculate that if a fair player takes part in 50 to 75 games in the course of a year he should acquire sufficient experience points to make him about 9th to 11th level, assuming that he manages to survive all that play. The acquisition of successively higher levels will be proportionate to enhanced power and the number of experience points necessary to attain them, so another year of play will by no means mean a doubling of levels but rather the addition of perhaps two or three levels. Using this gauge, it should take four or five years to see 20th level. As BLACKMOOR is the only campaign with a life of five years, and GREYHAWK with a life of four is the second longest running campaign, the most able adventurers should not yet have attained 20th level except in the two named campaigns. To my certain knowledge no player in either BLACKMOOR or GREYHAWK has risen above 14th level.”

The assumption was not only a campaign with the same character lasting 5 years, but also quite frequent and very long (12 hour) play sessions. Whereas, the expectation today is play sessions of 2-4 hours, once a week max, and coming to some sort of conclusion within a year.

And while I'm into the osr, I have to admit that I'm not really into the grind of classic games. There are too many new settings, systems, and games to try that I kind of want things to wrap up within 20 sessions.

 

[Maxperson]

Teleport, planeshift, forcage, contingency, simulacrum, mass suggestion, tons of amazing control spells.

Teleport, for when you really don't want to get where you are trying to go, but want to end up somewhere unknown and waaaaaaay off base from where you trying to get to. Even if you're very familiar with where you are trying to get to, there's a nearly 1 in 4 chance of ending up literally anywhere else on the same plane of existence that is similar, or worse.

It's good for emergencies only. If you're going to die if you don't, or someone will die if you do anything else, it's worth the risk.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Teleport, for when you really don't want to get where you are trying to go, but want to end up somewhere unknown and waaaaaaay off base from where you trying to get to. Even if you're very familiar with where you are trying to get to, there's a nearly 1 in 4 chance of ending up literally anywhere else on the same plane of existence that is similar, or worse.

It's good for emergencies only. If you're going to die if you don't, or someone will die if you do anything else, it's worth the risk.

Teleport is 100% accurate if you have an object from the desired location, so it's great for escapes. It's just no longer good for infiltration.

 

[Aldarc]

All Dead Generations had an interesting post related to this topic recently. In it, the author quotes Gygax in 1976:


The assumption was not only a campaign with the same character lasting 5 years, but also quite frequent and very long (12 hour) play sessions. Whereas, the expectation today is play sessions of 2-4 hours, once a week max, and coming to some sort of conclusion within a year.

And while I'm into the osr, I have to admit that I'm not really into the grind of classic games. There are too many new settings, systems, and games to try that I kind of want things to wrap up within 20 sessions.

This is one area where I find SotDL's approach interesting. Character levels go from 0 to 10, and leveling amounts to finishing a module. Finish a module/adventure? You level up. Modules are designed to work for a given tier of play: e.g., Starting (level 0), Novice (1-2), Expert (3-6), and Master (7-10). So any Expert module can be used for levels 3-6 play. But if you can get an adventure done in 1-2 sessions, then you're looking at around 20 sessions.

 

[Maxperson]

Teleport is 100% accurate if you have an object from the desired location, so it's great for escapes. It's just no longer good for infiltration.

Or general travel. It would get cumbersome to have to keep and catalog items from everywhere you go. A few important destinations would be kept.

 

[Reynard]

Or general travel. It would get cumbersome to have to keep and catalog items from everywhere you go. A few important destinations would be kept.

Yeah, but some enterprising conjurer is going to realize that by collecting mugs from every Inn in the Realms is going to mean he can hire out to teleport groups anywhere they want to go. Tomas' Terrific Teleporting Service At Your Service!

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, but some enterprising conjurer is going to realize that by collecting mugs from every Inn in the Realms is going to mean he can hire out to teleport groups anywhere they want to go. Tomas' Terrific Teleporting Service At Your Service!

And every day he'll have to go back to some inn or another for more drin.....er, mugs, since they're only good for 6 months! He doesn't make much money, because he uses up his slots, but he's happy with the service.

 

[Alzrius]

AD&D 2e had NO LEVEL LIMITS for humans and certain classes of demihumans.

The tables may have stopped at lower levels in what they show on a table, but they also explain how advancement beyond that can occur. 20th level was NOT the highest level you could go.

That's something of an oversimplification. The Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D 2E said (chapter three):

Theoretically, there is no upper limit to character class levels (although there are racial limitations). The material presented here takes characters only to 20th level--experience has shown that player characters are most enjoyable when played within the 1-20 range. Above 20th level, characters gain few additional powers and face even fewer truly daunting adventures.

While most people focus on the first sentence (and overlook the "theoretically" part of it), the first part of the second sentence is what I find more germane. The DMG only takes characters up to 20th level, having no experience point listings for gaining any levels beyond that.

Of course, various 2E books would rush to make up the difference, such as Forgotten Realms Adventures, PHBR4 The Complete Wizard's Handbook, Dragon Kings, and perhaps most famously, Netheril: Empire of Magic.

But eventually, things stabilized. Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns stated declaratively (p. 179):

All character advancement stops at 30th level, which represents the pinnacle of mortal achievement.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Reynard]

And every day he'll have to go back to some inn or another for more drin.....er, mugs, since they're only good for 6 months! He doesn't make much money, because he uses up his slots, but he's happy with the service.

He's basically a teleporting Uber.

 

[Maxperson]

While most people focus on the first sentence (and overlook the "theoretically" part of it), the first part of the second sentence is what I find more germane. The DMG only takes characters up to 20th level, having no experience point listings for gaining any levels beyond that.

2e put out a module that was for levels 18-100. Nothing theoretical about it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, but some enterprising conjurer is going to realize that by collecting mugs from every Inn in the Realms is going to mean he can hire out to teleport groups anywhere they want to go. Tomas' Terrific Teleporting Service At Your Service!

You don't even need mugs, just pressed leaves in a book with the name of the place written on that page.

Then again, where is a wizard going to get a book?

 

[Stormonu]

As much content as there is available for D&D, I wouldn't mind a PHB that only covers player levels 1-12, and the higher level content replaced with more subclasses, spells and other tidbits usable in that range. Moving that other content off to the DMG or a separate book wouldn't be a bad option, but it'd still need to be available somewhere for those encounters or groups that want to extend into higher levels.

 

[Reynard]

As much content as there is available for D&D, I wouldn't mind a PHB that only covers player levels 1-12, and the higher level content replaced with more subclasses, spells and other tidbits usable in that range. Moving that other content off to the DMG or a separate book wouldn't be a bad option, but it'd still need to be available somewhere for those encounters or groups that want to extend into higher levels.

There's precedent for that approach in B/X and BECMI, but I don't know how well it would go over. If you put it in the DMG it feels like it isn't for PCs, and if you put it in a different book you have effectively locked off high level enemies (at least those with spells or class abilities).

 

[Alzrius]

2e put out a module that was for levels 18-100. Nothing theoretical about it.

Nope. H4 Throne of Bloodstone (affiliate link) is a 1E module.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I would be fine if they did a super low level book, a mid level book and a high level book and made it perfectly clear that none of them is a 'starter' level.

 

[Flamestrike]

Answer: Because playing the Avengers is fun.

Flying and teleporting around, travelling to other realities, and facing Gods and Demon Lords and similar, and defeating existential threats to reality are the stuff of legends.

We've all gone toe to toe with a goblin, or stopped the evil necromancer in his tracks, and then moved upwards to Giants and Drow etc.

But an Infinity stone type existential threat, involving direct confrontation with demi-gods and mad titans, planar hopping and time warping?

The only reason we don't get to do this more often is because so many DMs dont know how to run high level games (and to be fair to them, it is time consuming, and a labor of love that requires a lot of experience and skill).

If anyone is interested, I'm running a T4 PBP in the other thread at the moment. Feel free to poke your head in for a look (try not to post though to derail the experiment).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The biggest reason higher levels aren't used by many groups is because of the assumption that you should start at 1st level.

I played in a 3e game that went from 5th to 20th level over the course of a few years.

I've run a 3-session 5e one-off game at level 20.

Games (should) start at the level they make sense, not necessarily 1st level.

I also agree that WotC shares responsibility for this with their publishing model.

For one of their mega-adventures, why not start at 7th level and have it run to 20th?

While I don't know whether the plot of Descent into Avernus could handle it, the Lower Planes would be the perfect place for it. The Blood War, with armies of creatures of all levels presents the most plausible place in the D&D Multiverse for high level combat encounters designed more or less like lower-level ones.

While it rarely makes sense on the Material Plane to have battles against a CR 20 foe, with 5 lieutenants of CRs 15+, a squad of half a dozen CR 11s, a few hundred CR 3-7s with a CR 8-12 leader for every 50 or so, and an endless stream of CR 2-s as the high level equivalent of "difficult terrain", that sort of setup is downright canonical for the Blood War. And there isn't just one of those, there is an endless supply!

My 20th level one-off involved a kraken with aboleth servants. It's rather ridiculous to have very many threats like that on the same Material Plane, but the other planes are ideal for all the high-level combat encounters you want, perfectly plausibly.

The DMG really should have gone into this stuff.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope. H4 Throne of Bloodstone (affiliate link) is a 1E module.

Bah! So much for 30 year old memory. LOL Thanks.

 

[Flamestrike]

My 20th level one-off involved a kraken with aboleth servants. It's rather ridiculous to have very many threats like that on the same Material Plane, but the other planes are ideal for all the high-level combat encounters you want, perfectly plausibly.

The DMG really should have gone into this stuff.

Then you run into the problem that many DMs lack the experience of high level play.

You've really got to run a few campaigns all the way to 20th and beyond (and not rage quit once a new ability comes online that you had not forseen), making mistakes along the way (as it's the only way you learn).

What so many DMs do, is they get to (7th-11th), encounter a new ability like Wall of Force, Teleport or Expertise or similar that totally derails the adventure, rage quit or end the campaign in frustration.

You've gotta run with it, and keep going. It's a learning experience.

I welcome experienced players in my games, because I can learn from them.

I've been doing this caper for long enough now, that I know most tricks and tactics employed by high level adventurers and can factor them into my planning for high level adventures.

Lets face it, when you're going toe to toe with Asmodeus for example, he knows those tricks as well.

Heck, he probably invented them.