D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Dessert Nomad]

I think a lot of people use dnd beyond even when playing in person.

That's definitely true, I've seen a lot of tablets and phones at gaming tables. But there's also a decent number of people (like me) who don't use DND beyond when playing online.

 

[Yora]

It's irrelevant if those stats are representative and accurate for all D&D players. The question was never if it is.

It was brought up as one more piece of anecdotal evidence to complement all the other anecdotal evidence.

The topic was also never whether nobody ever playes D&D at high level. That was never disputed. It's about whether the respective content is worth including in the primary Player's Handbook where it either takes up pages that could be used for other content, or increases the page count of a book that could be smaller and easier to comprehend when first learning the system.

 

[ph0rk]

It's irrelevant if those stats are representative and accurate for all D&D players. The question was never if it is.

It was brought up as one more piece of anecdotal evidence to complement all the other anecdotal evidence.

The topic was also never whether nobody ever playes D&D at high level. That was never disputed. It's about whether the respective content is worth including in the primary Player's Handbook where it either takes up pages that could be used for other content, or increases the page count of a book that could be smaller and easier to comprehend when first learning the system.

The starter set is still available.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's irrelevant if those stats are representative and accurate for all D&D players. The question was never if it is.

It was brought up as one more piece of anecdotal evidence to complement all the other anecdotal evidence.

The topic was also never whether nobody ever playes D&D at high level. That was never disputed. It's about whether the respective content is worth including in the primary Player's Handbook where it either takes up pages that could be used for other content, or increases the page count of a book that could be smaller and easier to comprehend when first learning the system.

The D&D Beyond Data tends to get brought up as undisputable. It's not. That's rather the point of this tangent.

IMO most people typically play in tier 1 and tier 2. Most people aren't opposed to playing in higher tier campaigns though. Many campaigns just tend to naturally fizzle out before you get there. Doesn't mean you don't want the rules. Though some DMG advice about potentially level capping lower for certain campaigns and worlds would have been good IMO.

 

[Charlaquin]

The D&D Beyond Data tends to get brought up as undisputable. It's not. That's rather the point of this tangent.

IMO most people typically play in tier 1 and tier 2. Most people aren't opposed to playing in higher tier campaigns though. Many campaigns just tend to naturally fizzle out before you get there. Doesn't mean you don't want the rules. Though some DMG advice about potentially level capping lower for certain campaigns and worlds would have been good IMO.

Interestingly, while we may differ in our evaluation of the data’s usefulness, we seem to come to the same conclusion - most D&D play happens in tiers 1 and 2, but rules for higher tier play are still valuable.

I’d also speculate that if the game did only go to 10th level, we’d see the same phenomenon - most play would occur at 1st-5th level. The Spinal Tap reference someone made earlier was really quite fitting in my opinion.

 

[Asisreo]

I believe pacing has a hand in that as well.

In D&D, its kinda slow to level up. IMX, its slower leveling up in milestone variants because usually even a whole adventure may not satisfy the DM's milestone requirements. But even with the official xp variants, it still takes roughly 1-2 full adventuring days to get a single level up.

With that in mind, its very difficult to maintain a campaign that spans 5-7 adventures since creating a single adventure takes so much effort even if its pre-made.

So if it takes 60+ sessions to even get to level 15+ and players really get worn out at an average of 30 sessions, its likely to cause games to end before reaching these levels.

 

[Malmuria]

The D&D Beyond Data tends to get brought up as undisputable. It's not. That's rather the point of this tangent.

IMO most people typically play in tier 1 and tier 2. Most people aren't opposed to playing in higher tier campaigns though. Many campaigns just tend to naturally fizzle out before you get there. Doesn't mean you don't want the rules. Though some DMG advice about potentially level capping lower for certain campaigns and worlds would have been good IMO.

For those of you who play higher level games, what about the high level content in the phb do you like? Most classes just seem to get improved or scaled-up versions of their signature class abilities (e.g. song of rest d10 then d12, extra attack, more uses of a particular feature, etc.). A common complaint I see is that there isn't a lot of customization past a certain level.

If you don't use the features, the material for the higher levels makes the phb a bit more difficult to navigate, as every class/subclass has higher level features and there's quite a few spells in the 6-9 level range interspersed with the spells you actually end up looking up. For those who do like the higher levels, it seems that the phb content isn't doing the work of creating interesting gameplay at those levels. So from this perspective, it seems like it might be worth it to make a "basic" phb going to level 10 or 12, and then an "advanced" phb with prestige classes, feats, domain rules, etc.

 

[Marc_C]

Levels 3 to 9 are the sweet spot in D&D. Never went beyond level 12 when starting from level 1. By level 9-12 the heroic story of the characters has been told. They saved their world once. No need to rinse and repeat. Time to roll a new character and try a new concept of campaign.

 

[Malmuria]

Interestingly, while we may differ in our evaluation of the data’s usefulness, we seem to come to the same conclusion - most D&D play happens in tiers 1 and 2, but rules for higher tier play are still valuable.

I’d also speculate that if the game did only go to 10th level, we’d see the same phenomenon - most play would occur at 1st-5th level. The Spinal Tap reference someone made earlier was really quite fitting in my opinion.

I wonder. If they squeezed the same amount of power into 10 levels, then yes. But if they kept the same power levels but just cut off the levels at 10-12 ish, I think people would still play through that range, as the fundamental gameplay would remain the same and there are enough established tropes for adventures in that range, along with all the modules from past editions. I mean, even Night Below and Queen of the Demonweb Pits ended at 14 level, right? Dead Gods from 2e--had to look this up--ends at 9th level. And you're fighting Orcus in the astral plane.

 

[Asisreo]

For those of you who play higher level games, what about the high level content in the phb do you like? Most classes just seem to get improved or scaled-up versions of their signature class abilities (e.g. song of rest d10 then d12, extra attack, more uses of a particular feature, etc.). A common complaint I see is that there isn't a lot of customization past a certain level.

Even though customization isn't as frequent in the upper levels, the amount of unique, interesting, and fair scenarios increase.

It would be quite a bold move for the DM to introduce a infamous and violent Ancient Dragon to a campaign where the party would struggle against an encounter against a CR 10 threat, but at higher levels, not only could they stand a chance physically, they could also have influential and political strength as well. Suddenly, this awesome dragon that would have had to be put on the sidelines or weakened beyond the reasonable expectations of the story can now play a part that's true to that dragon's nature.

More succinctly, your party can face the fiercest and deadliest challenges without being given a handicap. And that feels awesome!

Being the fighter that solo kills a dragon's lair, being the wizard that trades ancient secrets with entities from a different plane, being the rogue that has stolen several kingdom's worth of treasure with ease, or being the paladin that has his named forever etched in the holy scriptures of his religion.

These are feats that are either unreasonable or impossible for low level characters yet its almost an expectation of higher level characters. That's what makes high-level play...

EPIC! (Sorry, had to let it out...)