D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Oofta]

What's the point in trying to limit teleportation? Unless your setting has an ancient dragon hiding behind every tree it's not like there is anything to do along the road apart from pick daises and admire the scenery.

Sometimes I want the journey to be part of the challenge. If I don't I'll just narrate it. I want the option.

There are narrative reasons as well. Basically I don't want players expecting to be able to snap their fingers to have a chat with their homie Odin by casting plane shift.

 

[Celebrim]

For the obvious reason that whatever level you intend to play to, you'll need NPCs that are 4-8 levels higher than that to serve as villains for the PCs at that level.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sometimes I want the journey to be part of the challenge.

Which is pretty much impossible to do at high level whilst still retaining some semblance of realism. If there is anything capable of challenging a 20th level party roaming the countryside, how is it it hasn't slaughtered all the commoners?

For the obvious reason that whatever level you intend to play to, you'll need NPCs that are 4-8 levels higher than that to serve as villains for the PCs at that level.

Setting aside the lack of an official level 28 character system, I've tried multiclass cheating to create characters of around that level, and they could barely threaten the party at level 14. Unless they have legendary resistance, lair actions, and a horde of CR 9+ minions they might as well go home.

 

[Oofta]

Which is pretty much impossible to do at high level whilst still retaining some semblance of realism. If there is anything capable of challenging a 20th level party roaming the countryside, how is it it hasn't slaughtered all the commoners?

I guess I'm either dreaming or lying then when i say it is possible. You aren't walking down to the corner store for a loaf of bread. These are not random encounters, you aren't passing through charming pseudo English countryside. Or, if you are, I'll just narrate it.

High level takes some imagination, and unique locales or earth shaking catastrophes. I've had war zones, a dream realm of a comatose giant/god, my version of the shadowfel.

I personally prefer lower levels, I think they're more interesting. Saying high levels can't be fun, engaging and dangerous is simply untrue in my experience.

 

[jgsugden]

For the obvious reason that whatever level you intend to play to, you'll need NPCs that are 4-8 levels higher than that to serve as villains for the PCs at that level.

Do you? I'm not sure what response you're replying to, but I disagree that you need to have foes more powerful than a PC in order to serve as villains.

Lex Luthor and Superman. Can Lex take Superman in a fight? Nope. Superman is ridiculously more powerful ... but they've told thousands of Luthor v Superman stories. How?

The big problem with high level games is that many people do not run high level games. They run low level games using high level mechanics. They get frustrated that they can't run a murder mystery when the PCs can just ask a God who did it. They try to run a dungeon delve when the PCs can teleport to the end of it. They try to beat the PCs down with a pure melee brute when the PCs can just use magic to keep the brute at a distance. The DMs are not looking at the PCs as the high level incredibly powerful beasts that they are ... instead the DM think of the PCs the same way they think of 6th level PCs.

How can the game be fun without being able to provide mysteries? You can have mysteries at high level - but they're not a 'Who Dun It' mystery, they're a "What will happen" mystery. Spells can tell PCs what the DM thinks will happen if they attempt something, but in the end there is no spell that guarantees anything. So, instead of the PCs repeating the same mysteries they did at lower levels, the PCs get to skip to the ramifications of a mystery they can solve with a simple spell ... and those ramifications are very different when you go from solving the Murder of a Town Mayor to solving the Murder of the King.

And being able to scrye and teleport past an entire dungeon seems like it means that PCs never have to adventure. That isn't true, either. Teleportation allows PCs to skip past connective tissue, but they still have to go to the places of focal interest. If the MacGuffins are in 5 rooms, the PCs need to deal with those 5 rooms ... and if they skipped over the rooms next to the MacGuffin, then those rooms might provide reinforcements in the MacGuffin room. The dungeon still works ... you just think of it differently and maybe don't need to build so much middle 'fluff' for many high level parties, even if that fluff was the best part of lower level play. It just isn't at higher levels, usually.

So why do we have things like the Tarrasque in D&D if you're not supposed to do a melee brawl at high levels? Read the text beneath the combat box. It talks about it eating towns. It talks about it obliterating everything in its path. It is a Kaiju. While the PCs can fight it, the question will usually not be, "Can the PCs beat it?", but "Can the PCs beat it before it destroys X?"

High level DMing and playing requries a different skill set. It is worth learning - because it can be really fun.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I guess I'm either dreaming or lying then when i say it is possible.

It's possible. I sent them to the Underdark. But you are still in the situation of every fight being either a boss battle or not worth the effort of setting out the counters.

You aren't walking down to the corner store for a loaf of bread. These are not random encounters, you aren't passing through charming pseudo English countryside. Or, if you are, I'll just narrate it.

And if you are going to narrate it, you might as well just let them teleport.

High level takes some imagination, and unique locales or earth shaking catastrophes. I've had war zones, a dream realm of a comatose giant/god, my version of the shadowfel.

Sure, but the thing is earth-shaking catastrophes and weird alien dimensions get old real fast.

IT's not that I can't do it - I have done it. But it was tedious (at least for me as DM), and I was glad when it was over.

 

[Stalker0]

Nope. Superman is ridiculously more powerful ... but they've told thousands of Luthor v Superman stories. How?

By using an incredible amount of narrative fiat. Superman never beats luthor because he can't kill him, and Luthor always finds a way out of jail.

That doesn't work in most dnd games. The PCs find the bad guy, and immediately kill them....and your story is over. These kind of power imbalance scenarios you see in comics only work because the author forces it to work, when you give players agency these scenarios immediately fall apart.

 

[Stalker0]

I do agree with the notion that most high level games are better if you don't consider them an extension of lower level play....because its not just the mechanics that break down, the narrative also does.

To me the idea that high level characters are "actively adventuring" is pretty nuts to begin with. Considering their capabilities, they can very shortly just clean up all sorts of problems across the multiverse. That's why I much prefer high level play as a series of "one shots". Your epic heroes are scattered across the multiverse, fighting int he blood war, researching ancient divine secrets, whatever. But the team comes back together when the multiverse faces a great threat. Once complete, they all have a drink together (or some shwarma) and then return to their seperate paths.

That just works a lot cleaner than expecting a group of these guys to just roam around and solve every problem they come across.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

its not just the mechanics that break down, the narrative also does.

The narrative is the big issue. The mechanics work after a fashion. It's coming up with an entertaining story that involves beating up six Thanos before breakfast that is difficult.

I do agree with the notion that most high level games are better if you don't consider them an extension of lower level play...

This is very true. My problem was my players wanted to continue to play the characters they had started at level 1. Largely just to say they had done it, I think. It would have been a lot easier to run a level 20 one shot with heroes gathered from across the multiverse.

 

[Stormonu]

I simply do not like high-level D&D. I like my games closer to the grittier 70’s & 80 S&S movie genre. I hate running superhero games, and high level D&D games come across as constant “Avenger level threats” and plots.

I wouldn’t advocate for the removal of the rules from the game, but I just won’t be using anything much past 9th, and definitely not past 14th.