D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Maxperson]

By using an incredible amount of narrative fiat. Superman never beats luthor because he can't kill him, and Luthor always finds a way out of jail.

That doesn't work in most dnd games. The PCs find the bad guy, and immediately kill them....and your story is over. These kind of power imbalance scenarios you see in comics only work because the author forces it to work, when you give players agency these scenarios immediately fall apart.

In D&D what you describe is for low level and part of mid level. At the upper end of mid level and higher you have wishes, clones, boons, items, contingencies and more to keep BBEGs coming back as repeat villains.

 

[Malmuria]

It's weird that the PHB gives over space to content that is rarely used, just for the sake of tradition. Or because they like the number 20? I imagine a considerable amount of space would be saved if classes went from 1-12 and they got rid of 7th-9th level spells.

This high level content could be moved to a separate book, perhaps with prestige classes, advice for running high level games for DMs, and maybe some sample scenarios.

btw, for anyone who might be interested:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

 

[Shardstone]

D&D high levels are designed as an Anime Fantasy game.

Most people don't make this connection, but viewed through this lens, 5E's Tier 3 and 4 make a lot more sense.

 

[Maxperson]

It's weird that the PHB gives over space to content that is rarely used, just for the sake of tradition. Or because they like the number 20? I imagine a considerable amount of space would be saved if classes went from 1-12 and they got rid of 7th-9th level spells.

This high level content could be moved to a separate book, perhaps with prestige classes, advice for running high level games for DMs, and maybe some sample scenarios.

btw, for anyone who might be interested:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

There are a whole, whole lot of us that play to 20th level. Even if 95% of players don't reach those levels, 5% of 50 million is a huge number.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There are a whole, whole lot of us that play to 20th level. Even if 95% of players don't reach those levels, 5% of 50 million is a huge number.

I'm betting there's a lot of things 5% or more players enjoy and want that aren't in the core rules.

 

[Vaalingrade]

D&D high levels are designed as an Anime Fantasy game.

Most people don't make this connection, but viewed through this lens, 5E's Tier 3 and 4 make a lot more sense.

I would love to be able to use D&D to play Restaurant from another World, Ascendance of a Bookworm or the Ancient Magi's Bride.

Hell, I would love to be able to use it to run Slayers or really any D&D derived anime, but the resource attrition game makes that impossible

 

[Maxperson]

I'm betting there's a lot of things 5% or more players enjoy and want that aren't in the core rules.

Yeah, and a lot of things that are, including high level. There are several races that don't hit the 5% mark.

 

[Jer]

It's weird that the PHB gives over space to content that is rarely used, just for the sake of tradition. Or because they like the number 20? I imagine a considerable amount of space would be saved if classes went from 1-12 and they got rid of 7th-9th level spells.

It isn't weird to me - it's the way D&D has always been. And there are two reasons for it - the first is because there are folks who do use those rules and leaving them out would generate bad will. For 5e in particular, the compromise edition where they were trying to make everyone happy, cutting off the game at 12th level and not including 7th-9th level spells would have been outside the remit of trying to make everyone happy.

But the other reason for it is psychological - it isn't that players are going to get to those levels, it's that there's a promise that if they get to those levels then the game has rules for it.

(Also you probably wouldn't be able to cut out the 7th-9th level spells anyway - especially if you're going to keep spellcasting foes in the Monster Manual instead of turning all of the spells monsters can cast into actions as per 4e. Folks generally don't remember that the higher level spells in the game were often put there because they were needed for enemies to cast, and the creators of the game were averse to giving the bad guys special powers that the player characters couldn't theoretically get for themselves.)

 

[Shardstone]

I would love to be able to use D&D to play Restaurant from another World, Ascendance of a Bookworm or the Ancient Magi's Bride.

Hell, I would love to be able to use it to run Slayers or really any D&D derived anime, but the resource attrition game makes that impossible

Agreed. It is still pretty conflicted, even if I try and twist the lens towards anime.

 

[Shardstone]

There are a whole, whole lot of us that play to 20th level. Even if 95% of players don't reach those levels, 5% of 50 million is a huge number.

You know, surprisingly, that made me feel a lot better. Even a niche crowd with D&D is a big ass crowd!