D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Yaarel]

One of the advantages of having five tiers, each with four levels, is focusing one how each tier relates to the world. At the levels 1 to 4 tier, players are part of a village or school. At the 9 to 12 tier they are part of nation building. At 16 to 20, they are altering planets.

The scale of magnitudes increases. Each tier is a different kind of game, from newbies to superheroes.

 

[Stalker0]

One of the advantages of having five tiers, each with for levels, is focusing one how each tier relates to the world. At the levels 1 to 4 tier, players are part of a village or school. At the 9 to 12 tier they are part of nation building. At 16 to 20, they are altering planets.

The scale of magnitudes increases. Each tier is a different kind of game, from newbies to superheroes.

In theory yes, in practice we already have that with 4 tiers but people still confused or just simply don't agree on the definitions.

 

[Yaarel]

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In theory yes, in practice we already have that with 4 tiers but people still confused or just simply don't agree on the definitions.

Personally, I find the Players Handbook tier schedule useless, because level 10 is nothing like 5. And level 11 is nothing like 15.

But having five separate four-level tiers works great. I can write an adventure for a tier. I know how famous and influential characters are by tier. At tier 9 to 12, they start building an institution, like a wizard school, a fortress, become a political leader, and so on. This is also when they start feeling more like superheroes, so I set super challenges.


A four-level tier is in itself a kind of setting. It makes leveling manageable conceptually, and thematically interesting.

 

[James Gasik]

There are a whole, whole lot of us that play to 20th level. Even if 95% of players don't reach those levels, 5% of 50 million is a huge number.

Go tell that to the guy who thinks we should remove Halflings from the PHB because only 5% of people play them, lol.

 

[Maxperson]

Go tell that to the guy who thinks we should remove Halflings from the PHB because only 5% of people play them, lol.

And halflings are far from the lowest race played, even at 5%.

 

[Minigiant]

In theory yes, in practice we already have that with 4 tiers but people still confused or just simply don't agree on the definitions.

We agree with what the first few tiers are. That's why they get the content.

There still isn't a 50% consensus within the community of what the equivalent of an Archimage Wizard for more than half the classes. So how can you do Tier 4.

Heck. WOTC writes the game and really lack a handle on what half the classes are past level 11.

 

[James Gasik]

We agree with what the first few tiers are. That's why they get the content.

There still isn't a 50% consensus within the community of what the equivalent of an Archimage Wizard for more than half the classes. So how can you do Tier 4.

Heck. WOTC writes the game and really lack a handle on what half the classes are past level 11.

It would be nice if they would make high level campaign books with things like building strongholds and gathering followers again, mass combat, politicians, and bizarre adventures, but historically their attempts in the past were...decidedly mixed bags, and I don't think sold all that well.

In this new era of maximum profits, minimal production, I'm not sure there's a place for that from WotC, and we'll have to figure it our ourselves or buy it from elsewhere.

 

[Minigiant]

It would be nice if they would make high level campaign books with things like building strongholds and gathering followers again, mass combat, politicians, and bizarre adventures, but historically their attempts in the past were...decidedly mixed bags, and I don't think sold all that well.

In this new era of maximum profits, minimal production, I'm not sure there's a place for that from WotC, and we'll have to figure it our ourselves or buy it from elsewhere.

WOTC or any major 3rd party could get a lot of mileage out of exclusive magic spells for half casters and writing 16th+ level class features like epic levels and not as completion of a set of low level features done to prevent frontloading.

People don't even agree that high level characters should be defined by strongholds and followers.

 

[Malmuria]

So there are multiple ways that players interact with the game. There is of course "playing" the game, but there is also "dreaming" the game.

I have definately taken some of my best characters and built them up to 20th level, just to see what they would be like. I've dreamed of some of my characters getting to that level of power, even if they never actually get there in play.

And of course there are NPC elements, having the epic NPC that may serve as a mentor, as the classic world's hero, etc.


So high level rules do serve a purpose beyond just "running high level games". Whether that's "enough" to justify their page count is certainly debatable.

I was certainly this way with 2e when I was little. I remember getting the wizard spell cards and longingly rereading the 9th level ones lol.

If it were up to me, I'd focus the base PHB on gameplay for levels that players actually get to (and where the published adventures usually end), and then have an "advanced" PHB providing more full support for higher level play. Of course, they could do the latter without trimming the former.

 

[Stalker0]

People don't even agree that high level characters should be defined by strongholds and followers.

Yeah the real question is not when characters should stop leveling, the real question is when should a character stop "powering up".

Old Dnd effectively had a strong power progression that than flatlined, sure you gained levels but those levels honestly just didn't mean that much, you get a tiny amount of hitpoints, once in a while some adjustment to your THACO and saving throws, but that was about it. From a power perspective you were done.

But this is highly controversial, people like "more stuff" and "more power".... even though they don't realize that at some point adding more actually makes the game less, because your spending so much time on the mechanics your not actually enjoying the story anymore.