D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[James Gasik]

WOTC or any major 3rd party could get a lot of mileage out of exclusive magic spells for half casters and writing 16th+ level class features like epic levels and not as completion of a set of low level features done to prevent frontloading.

People don't even agree that high level characters should be defined by strongholds and followers.

It's true, which is why 3e got rid of the rules for such things (outside of the Leadership Feat). Too many people weren't engaging with them in 2e, preferring to keep going on adventures beyond 8th level.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah the real question is not when characters should stop leveling, the real question is when should a character stop "powering up".

Old Dnd effectively had a strong power progression that than flatlined, sure you gained levels but those levels honestly just didn't mean that much, you get a tiny amount of hitpoints, once in a while some adjustment to your THACO and saving throws, but that was about it. From a power perspective you were done.

But this is highly controversial, people like "more stuff" and "more power".... even though they don't realize that at some point adding more actually makes the game less, because your spending so much time on the mechanics your not actually enjoying the story anymore.

It needs to be narrative power, more than personal power. Unfortunately, spellcasters get both, and other classes don't get much of any.

A Fabricate spell can crank out weapons to arm an entire village, a Druid can triple crop yields, and a Fighter can...uh...flex his muscles good?

EDIT: this isn't a slam against Fighters, just a comment about how they only have abilities like this if the DM says they do, like the ability to make a skill check to train commoners to fight or lead an army, or come up with strategies. Whereas a spell slot can turn an old keep into a nigh impregnable fortress (Guards and Wards).

 

[jgsugden]

For example, Superman never beats Luthor because Luthor is charismatic, rich and powerful; thus immune to consequences.

Actually, sure. You can do a high level story where defeating the bad guy in a permanent fashion has negative consequences for the Pcs, for a nation, or for some other group ... so you have a Lex Luthor type that gets away with murder unless the PCs are willing to force a worse cost upon something.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah the real question is not when characters should stop leveling, the real question is when should a character stop "powering up".

Old Dnd effectively had a strong power progression that than flatlined, sure you gained levels but those levels honestly just didn't mean that much, you get a tiny amount of hitpoints, once in a while some adjustment to your THACO and saving throws, but that was about it. From a power perspective you were done.

But this is highly controversial, people like "more stuff" and "more power".... even though they don't realize that at some point adding more actually makes the game less, because your spending so much time on the mechanics your not actually enjoying the story anymore.

But you still powered up in old DND. Just in a different progression system.

Stronghold is one progression. The Noble lord.
Followers is another progression. The Mafia Boss.
Gear is another progression. The Weilder of the Sword Mukamuka
Class Prowess is a fourth progression. The Master of the Blade Waltz.
Supernaturalness is a fifth. The Reincarnation of the Demigod of Strength.

The question is how to offer a character to power up in differect way to match their setting and table.

 

[James Gasik]

Actually, sure. You can do a high level story where defeating the bad guy in a permanent fashion has negative consequences for the Pcs, for a nation, or for some other group ... so you have a Lex Luthor type that gets away with murder unless the PCs are willing to force a worse cost upon something.

Like that time Luthor was elected President of the United States.

 

[jgsugden]

Feel free to enlighten me. There are tons of stories out there...but they work because the author is holding all the cards. The characters work the way the author says they are going to work, and so the plot always turns out the way the author wants.

Yes, that is a description of the fiction writing process. Also, not relally what we're talking about here.

With dnd its a bit different. As everyone has some creative license in the story, and because players generally like to win, they are going to do things that help them do that. Also, PCs don't really get "tired" in a sane mortal way, which causes a lot of narrative dissonance. While a story character would be bored to tears doing the same thing for 5 minutes straight, a PC cleric will gladly cast guidance every minute of every day if it eeks them out some extra benefits....or until the DM tells them to stop because its silly

And, again, not really relevant to why I brought up the Superman / Lex Luthor example.

As a DM, you hold the cards before you hand them to the players. You make the world that they explore. You set the game into motion and they move it forward. Even when you work with them to create some core story, themes, and even NPCs ... you're still providing the majority of the framework.

When running a high level game, you use that framework differently than low level games. You have different limitations as a DM because players have more power, but you also have many advantages the low level DM does not.

For example, players that 'earn' their way through the low and medium levels with their PCs should have some attachments to the world in which they exist. That can provide motivation for the PCs, but it can also be used to frame story and provide more boundaries to help create story.

For example, a high level PC may have no concern with charging into a deadly battle as they know they're the toughest. But what if fighting that battle puts the people of their home town - the people they swore to protect - at risk. You might be able to tell that same storyline at low levels ... but it can have a lot more depth when you've actually had storylines that revolve around that twon and the PCs are invested from an experiential perspective rather than just from lines of backstory.

So why did I bring up Lex Luthor and Superman as an example of how to run a high level game? It is because the authors present a reason why the rich, white charismatic guy losing to Superman is more problematic than him winning. They weave it into their story. Sometimes, as the critics have noted, those explanations can be weak and can make for a bad story. But, sometimes they're good and create compelling stories. It may not be your cup of tea, but they've been telling these stories with Lex and Superman for over 80 years, so it appeals to some people... and unlike D&D which you can appreciate as a strategy game even if the story sucks, comics is really going to live and die on the quality of story.

 

[Shardstone]

seems pretty clear the base game should be 1-10 and then class or boon or power or material packages for levels 11-20, like warlord or pendragon or some such fighter subclass being up there etc, ala shadow of the demon lord

 

[NotAYakk]

I misread this as "16th and 20th level".

So you'd go 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19.

 

[Vaalingrade]

comics is really going to live and die on the quality of story.

~looks warly back at the last 3 decades of comics~

~looks at the DC movie-verse~

Um...

~Looks at how 300K is a est seller in comics today when they used to sell 10 million~

Nah, you're right.

 

[Oofta]

I was certainly this way with 2e when I was little. I remember getting the wizard spell cards and longingly rereading the 9th level ones lol.

If it were up to me, I'd focus the base PHB on gameplay for levels that players actually get to (and where the published adventures usually end), and then have an "advanced" PHB providing more full support for higher level play. Of course, they could do the latter without trimming the former.

You'd save a few pages at most. Unless you got rid of a bunch of high level NPC casters and monsters as well, probably half dozen or less because you'd still want the spells. Besides, there are those of us who like to play at that level.