D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I find it funny how in 3e, the official Odin had an ECL of 60 without counting Divine Abilities.

It makes it really jarring when people actually as though you become invincible at Level 15. That just tells me that the DMs aren’t trying enough imo.
So, there's a few problems with the approach of giving such entities stat blocks. "If it has hit points, we can kill it" is a mindset a lot of players have. There is no reason to have a 60th level opponent in the game. None. Zero. Zilch. You could just say "Odin wins" and that's that.

By defining his powers, you define his limitations. Because of how the magic system is designed, each distinct spell is a solution to a problem. In 3e, players routinely found obscure spells that let them find answers to any issue. I'm sure someone could figure out how to kill Odin without DM fiat being used.

I remember a discussion about how a couple of 10th level characters could take out the Tarrasque with relative ease, for example.

The issue most DM's have, I suspect, is they want to "fairly" challenge the players without resorting to fiat like no magic zones or abilities that just say "no you can't do X", or having to ban half the spells above 6th level. It's not that they can't do this, because they certainly can, but that they feel it's somehow unfair to have to negate the player's agency and abilities that the game gives them, in order to make the game work.

The game should work as written, and if it doesn't, that's a problem. It doesn't matter if rule zero exists and you can fix it- you shouldn't have to.
 

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d24454_modern

Explorer
So, there's a few problems with the approach of giving such entities stat blocks. "If it has hit points, we can kill it" is a mindset a lot of players have. There is no reason to have a 60th level opponent in the game. None. Zero. Zilch. You could just say "Odin wins" and that's that.

By defining his powers, you define his limitations. Because of how the magic system is designed, each distinct spell is a solution to a problem. In 3e, players routinely found obscure spells that let them find answers to any issue. I'm sure someone could figure out how to kill Odin without DM fiat being used.

I remember a discussion about how a couple of 10th level characters could take out the Tarrasque with relative ease, for example.

The issue most DM's have, I suspect, is they want to "fairly" challenge the players without resorting to fiat like no magic zones or abilities that just say "no you can't do X", or having to ban half the spells above 6th level. It's not that they can't do this, because they certainly can, but that they feel it's somehow unfair to have to negate the player's agency and abilities that the game gives them, in order to make the game work.

The game should work as written, and if it doesn't, that's a problem. It doesn't matter if rule zero exists and you can fix it- you shouldn't have to.
What’s wrong with them killing Odin if that’s what the DM is ok with?
 


d24454_modern

Explorer
Uh, would said DM still have him be a 60th level character then?
The DM can do whatever they want with him. I remember one DM saying that Odin was Level 20 in their universe. They can easily make him stronger if they want as well.

Especially since Creatures aren’t as beholden to the rules as PC characters are. That’s why Legendary Actions exist in 5e.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Uh, would said DM still have him be a 60th level character then?

The DM can do whatever they want with him. I remember one DM saying that Odin was Level 20 in their universe. They can easily make him stronger if they want as well.

Especially since Creatures aren’t as beholden to the rules as PC characters are. That’s why Legendary Actions exist in 5e.

To me

Marvel Odin is 20th level with epic boosts.
Mythology Odin is 50th level+ with epic boosts
 

Luceilia

Explorer
Uh, would said DM still have him be a 60th level character then?
I wouldn't. I have him as a 20th level character.

Just an ordinary 20th level character like every other Chief God in my universe (although I am vaguely tempted to either create a 21st level or open up a bucket of 'epic boons' to some OverGod who oversees the cosmology as a whole lol.)
 

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