Why Does spell Reasearch Have Such a High Cost?

[Merlion]

I think you are misunderstanding. Those rules are for CUSTOM spells. Not spells in the PHB, but brand new spells that ONLY your wizard has!.



Nope. It's a little concept called "game balance" -- it should cost LOTS of money to exceed the number of spells a "typical" PC Wizard of a given level should have.

If you want something "extra" you have to pay for it. IF it's a PHB spell, buy the scroll and "Take 10" to understand it, then scribe it in your book.

If it's not a published spell, IOW if it's custom, you pay the research costs. You're gettign somethign that, for example, no other wizard can read from a scroll ... it's not on THEIR class list, it's only on your own custom PERSONAL class list!! Nor could they use a Wand or Staff of that spell, either! If it's a particularly useful spell, and can be made into potions ... until someone else manages to reverse-engineer the spell, you have a window in which to make a LARGE profit (being the only source, most reasonable GMs would agree that, for a couple months at least, you could sell potions of that spell at full price, or more ... depending on the local economy, and how good the spell is, etc).



What about them? One chool of thought could have them utterly screwed when it comes to personal research!

Sorcerors STILL need to use spell components, just like wizards do. Bards, OTOH, would probablyhave to hire other musicians, to assist in working out the right harmonis to generate the magical effect(s) involved. Changing hired help every couple days, ofc, to avoid unintentionally hsaring their new creation.



You're right -- the cleric should ask very very nicely, and the GM should (usually) just say, in the role fo the deity involved: "What? Are you dissatisfied with my blessings? Not good enough for you, eh? Try living without ANY of them!"

And deny spellcasting, turning, and domain powers for a couple weeks. Sucks to be the impertinant servant for life of a divine authority.

But, no, again for balance's sake, it's presumed the cleric can buy lots of expensive candles and incense (and possibly mind-altering substances), and meditate / go on vision quests / etc, for the requisite time. The higher the level fo the spell, the longer this process takes.

And it costs a nice, blanket 1,000gp per week of research. Why?

Game balance and mechanical simplicity.

...



But it's NOT the same thing. As part of the benefits of levelling up, the Wizard is presumed to have earned income sufficient to research -- with guaranteed success -- two spells of his or her choice.

If the Wizard wants two MORE spells, she can either wait for another level, OR, do extra research, above and beyond what is presumed to be going on "behind the scenes".

Note that "behind the scenes" != "absolutely free of in-character charge" -- like I said, I personally presume that the Wizard is paid an occasional "behind the scenes" fee for some spellcasting service or other, which moneys are (still "behind the scenes") applied towards their behind the scenes research.



If you're BORN with spells in you already (one way to look at sorcerors, IOW, "hell or high water, Bob the Sorceror would have eventually been able to cast <insert spell here>, because it's in his blood." The corrollary to which is, "hell or high water, Bob the Sorceror would never become able to cast <insert spell here>, because it's just not in his blood!"



Because, innately based or spellbook based, Sorcerors and Wizards do the same THINGS when they cast their spells. They use the same gestures, the same words, the same material components, the same costly foci.

Spell research for a sorceror can be seen as the sorceror trying to artificially control their very SOUL, and form it into a desired pattern. This owuld involve much magick, consuming many expensive materials.

Or it could involve lots of incense, mind-altering substances and even ... er ... "ladies of the night" ... if some form of meditative, inwardly-turned form is preferable.

However you dress it up, though -- for game balance purposes, it takes 1 week per spell level to make a roll, and costs 1,000gp per week -- regardless of who's doing it.

Wizards get a "bye" only for their two-per-level, beause to do otherwise would screw the class over, bigtime. Just like sorcerors get a "bye" on their newly-learned spells. It's presumed to be done all "in the background", a.k.a. "behind the scenes" -- both the cost, and the assumed income to PAY for those costs. [/B]

And wizards who want to use their imagination and create their own spells get screwed. they get to pay way more money for it, when the only in game benefit is the fact that its their spell only. Yea that could make them some money in itself selling it to other wizards etc. Yes I realize that the 2 free spells are their for game balance even tho their presence...especialy if the player is required to do some roleplaying and deal with some actualy down time to get them...doesnt really make much sense and actualy somewhat contradicts some of the other things...such as reseaching your own spells. I'm sorry but first of all from a balance perspective I dont think the advantage of it being only your own personal spell is enough to warrant how much more it costs you than going and buying a printed spell of the same level. If I was to run a game I'd rule that it costs perhaps 100gp/level more to research a new spell than it would be to scribe a spell of that level into a wizards spell book. Also I have no problem with it taking time, and that is a cost in itself.
Nextly, game balance isnt all I'm talking about here. the rules dont really make sense to me...they seem self contradictory. they also seem to to strongly discourage players to do something which opens up roleplaying opurtunities and gives players a chance to really add to a campaign world. It essentialy implies effective level limits. it costs 3k gp to create a new 3rd level spell. for a 5th level wizard thats a lot of bleeping money to spend on any one thing.
As for sorcerers...well everyone has their own view of how sorcerers magic works. Monte Cook's variant sorcerer does NOT use spell components or foci of any kind, and pays XP for those spells with expensive materials. I would use the same sort of system for spell research myself. Generaly speaking I do not like or agree with the idea of sorcerers requiring most components and foci unless thats in line with a particular characters concept.
I do agree that for balance reasons their has to be some cost for wizards in particular. but I think the current printed rules costs are inflated. Beyond tht this seems to me a matter of differing opnions...if they way it is makes sense to you, I'm happy for you.
And as for divine spellcasters...yes a whole different system is needed for them. but I think your example of a deity stripping a cleric of all powers for weeks for petitioning their deity for a broadening of ablities is totaly out of line with the nature of many deities...possibly all from the point of view of, why would any god not want to make his/her servant more powerful?

 

[Merlion]

I

Nope. It's a little concept called "game balance"

I'd also apreciate not being spoken to in a sarcastic patronizing manner. Express your opnions...disagree, tell me why, dont talk to me like I'm stupid please.

 

[Pax]

And wizards who want to use their imagination and create their own spells get screwed. they get to pay way more money for it, when the only in game benefit is the fact that its their spell only.

"The only" ... ? You do realise that, at least in that game world (and if you're fortunate enough to see your GM publish his own world, in PUBLISHED works), yoru Wizard gets immortalised?

"Bigby" was an actual player-character, in Gygax's own home campaign (the game form whence sprang the World of Greyhawk). Note, his custom spells are in the PHB now. That sortof benefit, even if only wihtin one gaming group, is in and of itself nothing to sneeze at. Along with Mordenkainen's spells, for another example from the same game.

And again: the spell isn't on any other wizard's or sorceror's spell list, until and unless you teach it to them (or they get a scroll of it, and make the spellcraft check to decipher and understand it). Thus, a Wand of "Merlion's Mystic Devastation" (or whatever) woudl be useless except to you, or a Rogue or Bard with UMD, who pretty much would still have to know you, personally, in some way or other, so he could mimic your private, personal spell list.

Yea that could make them some money in itself selling it to other wizards etc.

... "some" ... ? If you're a member of a large guild, you could probably make a PROFIT on your efforts ... selling the spell at 1/10 the research cost, complete with a "year and a day" NDA of course. Sell to ten other spellcasters, and it just BECAME a free spell -- if it works atall, of course. Sell to 11 or mroe, and you're making profit.

Yes I realize that the 2 free spells are their for game balance even tho their presence...especialy if the player is required to do some roleplaying and deal with some actualy down time to get them...doesnt really make much sense and actualy somewhat contradicts some of the other things...such as reseaching your own spells.

So, because the wizard NEEDS two spells for free, every spellcaster should get INFINITE spells researched for free? I don't buy it.

I'm sorry but first of all from a balance perspective I dont think the advantage of it being only your own personal spell is enough to warrant how much more it costs you than going and buying a printed spell of the same level.

If it's a custom spell, and only yoru wizard has it ... then arguably, noone can lay plans to counter it. If noone but your trusted companions ever survives an encounter in which you USE yoru special, super-duper custom spell ... noone but said trusted companions will even know it EXISTS.

That is a huge benefit.

If I was to run a game I'd rule that it costs perhaps 100gp/level more to research a new spell than it would be to scribe a spell of that level into a wizards spell book. Also I have no problem with it taking time, and that is a cost in itself.

And you can expect, at those prices, to see everyone with very nearly nothing BUT custom spells. You shoudl script the world to reflet the concept that -- being so cheap to research -- new spells are literally a-dime-a-dozen.

IOW, you're talking a higher-magic campaign than the FR, which is the archetype for high-magic campaigns.

Nextly, game balance isnt all I'm talking about here. the rules dont really make sense to me...they seem self contradictory. they also seem to to strongly discourage players to do something which opens up roleplaying opurtunities and gives players a chance to really add to a campaign world. It essentialy implies effective level limits. it costs 3k gp to create a new 3rd level spell. for a 5th level wizard thats a lot of bleeping money to spend on any one thing.

You don't need a custom spell to RP. Find a new way to apply existing spells. Alter the pure-window-dressing elements of the spell. Pick up the Spell Thematics feat.

And yes; most 5th level wizards aren't researchign diddly. Consider previous editions, where you had to be 7th level to even write a scroll, and IIRC, 12th level to research a new spell at all.

With the difference in what any single level means, that converts to 3E terms of roughly 15th to 20th level to make a scroll and 25th to 35th level to research new spells.

I do agree that for balance reasons their has to be some cost for wizards in particular. but I think the current printed rules costs are inflated. Beyond tht this seems to me a matter of differing opnions...if they way it is makes sense to you, I'm happy for you.

Heh. My original 3E GM would have absolute apoplexy at your suggestion. Being a 1E/2E veteran, he nearly had a fit to hear how lenient 3E already is ... !

He figured even a low-level spell to take years, and tens of thousands of GP (or more!). For starters.

And as for divine spellcasters...yes a whole different system is needed for them. but I think your example of a deity stripping a cleric of all powers for weeks for petitioning their deity for a broadening of ablities is totaly out of line with the nature of many deities...possibly all from the point of view of, why would any god not want to make his/her servant more powerful?

Because any power granted to a cleric, comes FROM that deity. Theres only so much to go around, after all.

And no, clerics don't need a different system. The incense-and-meditation bit is all that needs to differ ... and that's purely window dressing.

I'd also apreciate not being spoken to in a sarcastic patronizing manner. Express your opnions...disagree, tell me why, dont talk to me like I'm stupid please.

I haven't been doing so. I've been speaking to you in a familiar, "we're all gamers here" tone. "Nope. Game balance is why" isn't patronising; nor was it sarcastic.

TRUST me ... if I had wanted to be insulting, well -- I'd probably be banned from ENWorld for a long time, and you would still be staring in shock and dismay at your monitor, come three weeks from now. I have "Epic Weapon Specialisation: Caustic Wit" ...

 

[Merlion]

Well I misunderstood then...I was actualy feeling rather attacked by your statements. I disagree with you on most points...actualy also I later realized once you sell your custom spell to ONE other mage...they can do whatever they want with it and its not going to be only yours and his for long.
I think we just have a drasticaly different outlook on the whole thing. You seem to see research unique spells as almost somewhat akin to creating a powerful unique almost minor artifact level magic item. and maybe your right. also as I said before I realize that it shouldnt be free...i just happen to feel that its over priced.
All of DnD is pretty high magic at this point especialy as regards magic items. if you wanna see some imbalance just look at how easy magic items are to aquire. Of course aparently you feel the same way about spell research. Thats fine...I think I get where your coming from now. Within the way that most existing DnD worlds are however I dont personaly agree. Of course all this would be moot if they could just come up wth a not so restrictive magic system but I digress
And actualy I DO like some of the things you said about clerics. It would work essentialy the same they would just be doing different things...the vision quest type deal. I just dont think most deities would react negatively to that. basicaly if they suceed at their check their deity gants them knowledge of a new prayer. if they fail they recieve nothing.

 

[Pax]

Well I misunderstood then...I was actualy feeling rather attacked by your statements. I disagree with you on most points...actualy also I later realized once you sell your custom spell to ONE other mage...they can do whatever they want with it and its not going to be only yours and his for long.

A simple Geas spell, requiring nondisclosure of the spell to anyone else, for the mystically-semi-standard "year and a day", preserves the uniqueness of yoru creation for that time span. Hence my reference to "NDA's" ("non-disclosure agreements").

After that, the potential benefit of having your name on a spell is, itself, nothing to look down at. Even if it's only a first-level spell; how many first-level spells have a mage's name, as part of the spell name?

Offhand, without opening my books, I can think of one -- Tenser's Floating Disk (Tenser being another player characetr form Gygax's early homebrew campaign ...).

I think we just have a drasticaly different outlook on the whole thing. You seem to see research unique spells as almost somewhat akin to creating a powerful unique almost minor artifact level magic item. and maybe your right.

Well, "unique" does mean "singlular" as in "only one" ... so if the spell is unique to you, only you have it.

Picture, if you were the only wizard with Prismatic Pray, Wall, and Sphere. Noone else has even heard of such a spell. What happens when you run into some nasty thing, and pop off a Prismatic Wall?

Simple: the enemy has no idea how to handle it. ALL they know is, it's a bright, sparkly, colored wall of light. They don't know not to stick their hand through it ... or try to step through it. They can logically guess that doing so owuld be hazardous, but they might be (over-)confident in their defensive magics.

Only to get shunted to another (random) plane, by that key seent layer of the Wall. Buh-bye, sucks to be them!

All of DnD is pretty high magic at this point especialy as regards magic items. if you wanna see some imbalance just look at how easy magic items are to aquire. Of course aparently you feel the same way about spell research. Thats fine...I think I get where your coming from now. Within the way that most existing DnD worlds are however I dont personaly agree. Of course all this would be moot if they could just come up wth a not so restrictive magic system but I digress

Yes, all of DND is higher magic than previous editions. The FR is even higher magic than core D&D.

But IMO, cutting spell reserch costs by an entire order of magnitude, would go ... well, an order of magnitude above the FR, setting new records for "high magic campaign" ...

And actualy I DO like some of the things you said about clerics. It would work essentialy the same they would just be doing different things...the vision quest type deal. I just dont think most deities would react negatively to that. basicaly if they suceed at their check their deity gants them knowledge of a new prayer. if they fail they recieve nothing.

Depends on the deity; ifyouw ant to have the cleric just ASK for a new power "because deities shuld want their clerics to be powerful" ... well, if you were a deity of, say ... springtime rains. A mortal, one of your clerics, comes up to you, and says something like:

"Your masterfulness, sir, I know you have blessed my people with wonderful rains, giving us bountiful crops, for lo! these past hundred years ...... and I know you have blessed me, and my fellow preists, with the ability to call rin directly to any place, in all of the world ... and with many other miraculous powers.

But, well, um ... that's not good enough. You see, well ... we want to be able to create new rivers wherever we want too -- even if we have to start with just a little stream. There are alot of places where we just can't BRING rian often enough, but people want to live there, and need food too ...

... so, how about it, O Great Master of the Rains and Waters ... what do you say? Give me some MORE power, since what you'e already (in yoru infinite wisdom) given us isn't enough. Okay?"

Well, unless this Rain-and-waters god is a total pushover ... s/he is likely to take MAJOR offense at the impertinence of a mere mortal daring to suggest that a GOD, has not done enough.

In greek mythology ... roman mythology ... or frankly, solid "full of wroth" old-testiment judaeochristianity ... not only is said CLERIC likely to be punished ... entire nations might feel the god's wrath.

Plenty of examples from real-world mythology portray Gods as fickle, self-interested beings, rather than as "noblesse oblige" style deities. Even LG deities would likely visit some punishment or chastisement on a mortal so cheeky as to directly ask for a specific power.

Hence, vision quests and meditation, asking/hoping to be given the inspiration of how to do X magical thing, if it can be done at all. Mechanically, ofc, the time and money spent on research -- money in this case, likely spent on rituals, gifts, sacrifices, and other methods of appeasing the deity (and their servant(s), while workign one's way up the chain-of-command).

 

[Merlion]

I never said anything about putting my name in my spells
~shrugs~ I still disagree. within DnD I dont think most deities especialy most non evil ones would respond that way. Otherwise it would be impossible for divine spellcasters to develop new spells. and I already said the vision quest idea made sense to me. and it wouldnt even neccsarily involve "asking for more power". it would involve attempting to delve deeper into the mysterys of your deity/power/patron.
Anyway summing up like I said before obviously we just disagree/have different viewpoints on certain things...your way and outlook is fine. its one good option/outlook. but not the only one.

 

[Drawmack]

I think the two of you are arguing from different sides of the same tree. I will explain my rational on these rules and see if it makes sense to either of you.

First I must explain where magic comes from IMCW.

Magical Energy - There are flows of energy that circle the world flowing like rivers. These flows are invisible to all, though some (sorcerers) can feel them.

Spell - The means and ways of chanelling this energy through the caster to create a specific magical effect.

Different types of casters channel this energy in different ways. Divine casters use prayers and focuses to bring their mind and spirit into enough harmony with the world around them to directly channel this energy. Almost like a shaman. Bards play songs whose tonal qualities form this energy. Sorcerers feel the power coursing around them at all times, so closing their eyes and envisioning the effects is enough. Wizard's practice rituals to accomplish similar goals to the divine caster but in a different way.

All that being said:
When a caster researches a new spell they are attempting to find a new way to tap and contort this energy. This is vastly more difficult then learning a way that someone else has taken already. I can prove this, pick a destination you've never been anywhere near before and drive there without any aid or directions from anyone or anything. Okay, lost yet - now buy a map and go home. Therefore it is vastly more expensive to research it. The caster probably hurts themselves numerous times in the process by making somthing to strong or two unwieldly. The arcane caster is probably going to burn a lot of unnecessary components, the divine caster is probably going to have to pay tribute to numberous churces to gain access to their libraries to find similar prayers. All of this stuff costs money and a lot of it.

My honest opinion is that you want to develop a repritiour of custom spells and you're pissed because game mechanics don't let you do that. Well even the greatest jazz musician had to learn the standards first.

 

[dcollins]

Being able to make up your own spells is a huge benefit. The fact that those spells need to be "balanced" doesn't mitigate this -- that just means they're desirable (advantageous) without entirely breaking the game.

Fighters don't get to invent their own feats. Rogues don't get to invent new skill categories. Clerics don't get to invent new domains of their specification. Allowing spellcasters to invent their own class features (i.e., spell lists) without limit is a massive breakout from the whole logic of an RPG, in which players select from available options, described in rulebooks, for their PCs.

DMG p. 95 says: "Introducing an unbalanced spell does more damage to your game than handing out an unbalanced magic item. " That is, one single judgement lapse on the part of the DM in this regard can potentially wreck the whole campaign. Instead of forcing the DM to make scores of these new-spell balancing decisions all the time, the high expense forces players to think very carefully before requesting a new spell. Therefore, the new-spell-design burden and responsibility are distributed among multiple people in the playgroup, and not solely the DM.

Theme-wise, it can make sense to have wizards be researching new spells, so rules are given to help DMs who allow that in their campaigns. But it is definitely a huge benefit (no other class gets to design their own class features in-game), and like any increase in PC power, needs to come at the expense of some other in-game resource. I would not even want to see this rule loosened up, because by default there needs to be some "hard control" (DMG p. 96) on spellcasting abilities, if nothing else so that new players are at least basically playing the same game by the same rules as most everyone else. Similarly, it should always be crystal-clear in the rulebooks that by default players need to choose from options in the books, and not let new DMs be bullied into thinking that players always get to write their own rules for their PCs.

 

[Coredump]

Merilon,

Couple of points.

It is *always* easier, cheaper, faster to do what has already been done, rather than do something new. Therefore it makes plenty of sense that it would be easier to learn a spell someone else has already developed, rather than make a new one. Look at all the expense that goes into R&D in so many different industries today, it takes MONEY to do something new.

Now, the next question is if it is worth it? Well, that depends. But it does give you certain advantages. You get the exact spell that you want, you don't have to compromise. Plus, you get it now, you don't have to find it, or try and buy it. No one can counter it.

Plus, it is pretty expensive now to buy and scribe a spell (boccobs book not withstanding). If you make it 10x cheaper to research, than there should be a TON of new, unknown spells flying around. That means the NPC's should probably have about 1/2 their arsenal unknown to the PC's. So much for counter spelling. And be very prepared for having to judge a bunch of new spells, *and* the hundreds of spell combinations that makes available.

Now for some specifics.
As noted, there is a BIG difference between getting those first 2 spells, and researching totally new ones. It is assumed that while reading/meditating/whatever, you came across some new spells that someone else has already put in the effort/time/money to develop. Sort of like learning about someone elses discovery; a lot easier than making the discovery.

That said, I could see giving a 'break' to a caster researching a very similar spell to one known; sort of like just making a variation.

In fact given how sorcerers are described they should be even more likely to develop unque spells of their own. and why should it take them 1,000gp/spell level of "research" stuiff when their magic is innate?

By your very logic, since it is 'innate'; how could they possibly research anything?? By that logic, they shouldn't even be able to choose their spells, they should be random.

it costs 3k gp to create a new 3rd level spell. for a 5th level wizard thats a lot of bleeping money to spend on any one thing.

Makes sense to me. A fifth level wizard can barely handle casting a 3rd level spell, and you want him to research inventing a totally new one?? I think it would be a logical rule that you can only research 2 levels below what you can cast.


BTW, at your suggested 100gp/lvl cost, that means that in general, it is cheaper to invent a spell, rather than buy it.

All of DnD is pretty high magic at this point especialy as regards magic items.

I disagree. Many people *play* it that way. Doesn't mean it has to be that way. And yes, even by playing within the rules. But that is for a different thread.

totaly out of line with the nature of many deities...possibly all from the point of view of, why would any god not want to make his/her servant more powerful?

If servant power were all the concern, than why not let all of them cast high level spells? There are many answers to that, and almost all of them will also work to explain why the cleric has to 'work' to 'earn' the right/ability to invent a new spell.

 

[The Spectrum Rider]

****
I mean mechnacialy your paying a lot for nothing. your paying 1k GP per spell level for a balanced spell. For a good deal less(especialy at lower and mid spell levels) you can buy a scroll of a spell and the materials to scribe it
****

Well, then, do so.

What's that, you say? You don't WANT a standard PHB spell that you can easily buy from another wizard? You want something ELSE?

Then it costs more. Supply and demand. A new spell is a fairly rare thing (otherwise there would be no such thing as "standard spells" - just thousands upon thousands of spells known by individual casters).

There are both in-game and metagame reasons for the extra cost. In-game, as many people have pointed out: in takes more time, money, and effort to come up with something NEW than it does to get something that's common, known to many wizards and described in standard mage textbooks. This is true in real life as well - if you want the proof of a known theorem in math, look it up in a library; if you want to prove a new theorem, spend years getting a Ph.D. in math and work it out for yourself. There's LOTS of old theorems; new theorems (of importance) are more rare.

Metagame: there's a reason there are standard spells. They've been game-tested by professionals for balance, usefulness, and clarity. (Even then, some of them aren't quite right, but that's another story.) Every new spell your character introduces, however, is a risk for the DM - it's being game-tested in HIS game, in realtime, and it's not always clear in advance if it's balanced, useful, and clear. That's something that requires use of the spell under different game conditions to be even somewhat sure of.

You say, "if it's a balanced spell, it should be all right." But there's no computer that can tell you if some new spell is balanced. It takes time, thought, and experience, and even then you're not sure until it's been used for a while.

Many new, untested spells thrown into a game at once can easily lead to unexpected (and potentially unbalancing) consequences, and may require a lot of work for the DM. To cut down on this problem - while not eliminating the possibility of new spells altogether - they are made more expensive and difficult to learn than standard spells.

Makes sense to me. And the rules are in no way unfair, because they apply to all spellcasters the same.

The Spectrum Rider