Why don’t players surrender... would we want them too?

[Derren]

True.

But also, some players don’t pay attention to the world-building guides they’ve been given.

In the 1990s, I ran a HERO Supers campaign set in the campaign world of Space:1889, but expanded. I told the players this, and made all of the info available for them to read at their leisure while we did ChaGen. I also created an organizational newsletter for the group they were part of that Recapped past events and dropped hints of news or the world. Everyone bought in. Best campaign I ever ran.

But when I tried the same thing with a completely different group in a completely different city a decade or so later, using Mutants & Masterminds, the campaign crashed and burned. There were multiple reasons it happened, but one I didn’t find out until doing a post-collapse “autopsy”- some players hadn’t paid attention to the campaign setting at all. The emails, the handouts, The multiple copies of Space:1889 on the table, etc. all went unread. One was surprised the campaign date was 1914. Another didn’t know there were dinos on Venus, Martians, or Atlanteans.

Ah yes, the "I want to play but not invest any effort" player...

 

[aramis erak]

Fiction is full of situation where this happens and the disadvantage is reversed so why does it never happen? It isnt as if resourceful PCs would’t have a good chance of breaking out of most cells.

• Do DMs give the impression that surrender would result in death anyway?
• Do players resent the loss of agency?
• Do DMs make cells too strong to the point that escape would seem impossible?
• Do players despise the idea of not having their stuff, even for a short time?

Can anything be done about this and would we want to?

Fundamentally, I think it's about the loss of agency more than anything else.
My players, young and old, detest loss of agency. Anything else is better than captivity on that scale.

I've had players surrender, tho'... not many, not often.

 

[Doug McCrae]

some players don’t pay attention to the world-building guides they’ve been given.

"Players never read the handouts" is the mantra of one of the GMs in my social circle, though I think he's being a bit unfair. I've always done the reading when I've been a player in his games.

 

[Umbran]

.... some players hadn’t paid attention to the campaign setting at all. The emails, the handouts, The multiple copies of Space:1889 on the table, etc. all went unread. One was surprised the campaign date was 1914. Another didn’t know there were dinos on Venus, Martians, or Atlanteans.

Yep. The players didn't read. That's a shame.

And the GM chose a campaign and/or communication method that didn't fit the players. Maybe they needed a bit more "show don't tell" instead of "written infodump"?

 

[Umbran]

Ah yes, the "I want to play but not invest any effort" player...

You know, in my gaming history, I've had players working two jobs, or managing chronic health issues, or managing to be a single parent...

Maybe just slapping the "don't want to invest effort" label is... not a good move. And maybe being aware that your game is in competition with other things in their lives is warranted.

And.. though we tell a lot of stories, I hate to break it to you, but campaign setting amterials are not often the most gripping reading.

 

[aramis erak]

How can the heroes lead a slave revolt if they don’t get captured?
Prison break?


Have people not run these scenarios?

Most people? Probably not.
I know I avoid the topic of slavery in most of my games, simply because it's automatically considered evil by the players, even in its most benevolent forms (civil indenture, criminal indenture).

Likewise, when I run semi-historical games, which is rare but not never, slavery is downplayed, simply because I find it too repugnant to deal with.

It's one of a great many areas where historical folk would look at modern morality and burn us at the stake.

And, without an equivalent of the Geneva Convention, and without slavery, there's no expectation of survivable capture. Which brings us to the other thing about captives: Captives cost resources. Which is why some groups (including WW2 IJN and IJA forces) tended to execute prisoners unless there was a pressing labor need. Note: Tended, not always. Some were kept for propaganda use, others because informing the allies they'd been captured was a form of morale-attack.

Now, in Pendragon, I've had players surrender... because they knew they could get ransomed out. But it's been rare.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep. The players didn't read. That's a shame.

And the GM chose a campaign and/or communication method that didn't fit the players. Maybe they needed a bit more "show don't tell" instead of "written infodump"?

Thing is, I didn’t just throw the stuff at them.

I asked them in person if the campaign setting sounded interesting to them before I went about converting key NPCs from HERO to M&M. I specifically mentioned Martians as part of the setting’s extraterrestrial colonialism theme, and Venusian dinos for to pique the interest of the guy whose PCs always involved hunting themes.

Hell- I only converted because I asked them what supers system they wanted me to, and HERO had zero takers. Because the conversion would take time, while I was doing it, they were reminded verbally- with follow up emails- about the general framework of the setting, and that if there were any questions, they could contact me.

Some did.* Others didn’t.


* In fact, I stumbled upon one email last night about the viability of playing a Time Lord style PC.

 

[pemerton]

Just off the top of my head, some "Appendix N"-type literature that involves capture and prisoners:

* Conan is captured by Belit and ends up co-leader of her pirate band (Queen of the Black Coast);​

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* Conan is defeated in battle and taken prisoner, but escapes the dungeons of his captor (The Scarlet Citadel);​

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* Conan is defeated in battle and taken priooner, but escapes with the help of Zenobia (The Hour of the Dragon);​

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* Arran is captured by pirates, and has to be rescued by Ged (The Farthest Shorre);​

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* Gandalf is captured by Saruman and has to be rescued by Gwaihir (LotR);​

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* The hobbits are captured by Barrow Wights and have to be rescued by Bombadil (LotR);​

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* Merry and Pippin are captured by Orcs and escape to Fangorn (LotR);'​

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* Frodo is captured by Shelob and Orcs and has to be rescued by Sam from Cirith Ungl; later they have to fall in with some Orcs and then escape off the side of the road (LotR);​

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* Princess Leia is captured by Darth Vader and has to be rescued (Star Wars);​

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* Leia, Han and companions are captured on Bespin and have to escape (Star Wars);​

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* Lando is taken prisoner (briefly) by the protagonists and then joints them (Star Wars);​

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* Leia, Han and friends are captured by Jabba and have to escape (Star Wars);​

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* Leia, Han and squad are captured by Imperial forces on Endor and rely on an Ewok uprising to escape (Star Wars);​

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* Luke surrenders to Vader and is taken prisoner on the Death Star and escapes (Star Wars).​

None of these is a peripheral example of the sort of fiction fantasy and sci-fi adventure RPGs are designed to emulate. In my view a system that breaks down in these sorts of contexts, or that relies purely on GM fiat, is not fit for purpose.

EDIT: Forgot this one, from LotR:

* Sam and Frodo are taken prisoner by the rangers of Ithilien, and are released after befriending them.

 

[Eltab]

I know I avoid the topic of slavery in most of my games, simply because it's automatically considered evil by the players, even in its most benevolent forms (civil indenture, criminal indenture).

Likewise, when I run semi-historical games, which is rare but not never, slavery is downplayed, simply because I find it too repugnant to deal with.

One of the Ashes of Athas (D&D 4e Dark Sun campaign) modules featured slave-trackers and a slave-owner. My group dropped our intended mission to kill the trackers dead. Oops, they were supposed to tell us who the owner was. The DM adapted, and when we met the owner the group blackmailed him (offer he dared not refuse) into paying for the slaves we were helping to escape.

This sort of reaction to a Slavery plot seems common. I conclude that slaveholding NPCs who cannot ransom themselves (one way or another) will not survive to become recurring antagonists.
Therefore, when I write my own DS 'free the slaves' adventure arc, the PCs patron will already have done the investigation ... so the PCs will not break the plot if they kill every slaver they meet.

 

[Khelon Testudo]

Perhaps early adventures in a campaign where you want your players to be aware that being captured is survivable could include a session where they escort a ransom to a hostage-holder, and escort the hostages home.