D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Personally, I think the back and forth regarding who is or isn't making a straw man makes all participants look the lessor, and would advise dropping it, but that's just one opinion.

I think there's a heavy dose of 'I don't like everything about this thing, but I've seen a lot of complaints about it that seem unfair.' Similar for me are the latest Star Wars movies or Star Trek shows and some of my favorite webcomics that honestly were better some time in the past -- I'll happily discuss how I'd rather things have gone with one or the other, but it doesn't take all that much disparagement for my mind to go to 'ah, we have a hate-watcher here.'
5e has some problems. Good DMing advice and facilitating specific gameplay styles especially. However, once the bile starts dripping, I think it's pretty natural for the wagons to start circling.
Sure. I both run and play 5e. I do it with minimal changes to the ruleset. I'm not going to pull a punch about how the system isn't perfect just because I enjoy playing it, though. The defenses deployed that amount to dismissing haters are denying actual issues in the system, though. Even the argument that it's easily solved for an experienced GM is sidestepping the point that the system, as written, has these flaws. It shouldn't be up to individual GMs to fix things -- they should be spending their time finding ways to make the game work better for them rather than papering over the holes it came with.

I've played/run other systems that don't have these kinds of issues -- they work as advertised out of the box. I've tweaked them, though, but I've done it to better align it to my wants, not because the system needs me to correct so that it can do what it says on the tin. 5e suggests that rations are important. It does this by having a rule about how much they cost, how much the weigh, and rules about how much you can carry. It also has rules on how much you consume, daily, and what happens if you don't. Then it has lots of rules on how all of that is not really a problem -- spells, backgrounds, class features, magic items, etc. I don't understand the design philosophy that puts effort into saying something is important but then undercuts that importance immediately. Or the one that suggests that design issues like this are okay because permission has been given to change it.
 

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I should add, that, from this point of view, overland travel from A to B is not necessarily "exploration" at all, if it isn't set up to reveal new things or make new life choices during the travel itself. If I go from Neverwinter to Phandalin, and I beat up a few bandits on the way, get lost for a day, but eventually reach my destination having learned nothing particularly interesting, this trip wasn't exploration.
The bolded bit was exploration, in that (in theory) you learned about the area you got lost in and maybe how not to get lost there next time. :)
 



You can set a mission up so that success or failure doesn't hinge on the success of a random roll, while still having outright mission failure be an option.

When I was first DMing back in junior high school I placed a necessary component behind a secret door, because the BBEG wasn't stupid and wouldn't just have it out in the open. They missed the secret door and the entire adventure ground to a halt. I realized right then that it was a mistake to have failure be possible through no fault of the players. It's not fair or fun to do that to them.
It certainly can be fair, and I'm not too concerned if the players/PCs get a bit frustrated now and then.

Maybe they eventually come to realize they missed something important and have to go back and re-explore the adventure site (I've had this happen more than once). Maybe that thing they missed comes back to bite them in the rear later. Maybe they fail and just move on.
If a clue is there for them to find and they choose not to search, so be it. If they find a clue and don't interpret it correctly, so be it. Failure isn't going to come about because they rolled low and never found a clue that they looked for, though. That doesn't mean that no clues will be roll dependent. It just means that there will also be other means to figure it out that are not dependent on rolls
Yes, having other means to figure things out is good; but if they blow all of 'em then so be it.
 


There are a great many more problems. Create food and water is behind a bunch of other larger problems deliberately created to negate or trivialize any impact that might be added through exploration. Simply removing banning or nerfing a bunch of stuff creates a new problem though.

As @Ovinomancer mentioned earlier about the gm needing to have the experience to quickly recognize the problematic elements while knowing how to alter them in order to avoid creating new ones is certainly half of that problem.
The DM also has to accept that some of her fixes might end up being as bad or worse thn the original problem, and further be willing to go through a possibly-lengthy trial-and-error process of beating the game into shape.

It doesn't take experience, just a willingness to kitbash and an ability to admit mistakes before it's too late.
If the players do not also have that experience they will be given s bad impression of an apparent adversarial gm rolling out a long laundry list of nerfs right out of the gate for no reason that they as players can see.
Well, this process obviously requires up-front and ongoing communication with the players: "Hey, guys, this isn't working for reasons A, B and C; so I'm going to try rules alterations X, Y and Z to see if anything improves. If it does, we'll keep it; if not, I'll think of something else."
Without a sidebar from wotc te GM can point at to say "we are using this option" the gm has no good way of easily correcting the bad impression wotc set them up to make for daring to strip away all the fun protecting abilities in order to create new problems & complications wotc went to great lengths in order to keep that type of unfun gameplay from wrecking the perfection thst is 5e. In past editions the GM had a variety of dials they could adjust so players got a boon in this & that area making up for how this other one might hurt or even frustrate a bit , but in 5e they are all already tuned to 11 in favor of the players out of the box to force mass nerds as step zero for the gm to take.
This goes directly back to my point upthread about it being esier for a DM to relax the rules than to tighten them.
 


I don't think this is correct... combat with environmental factors (cold, rain, heat exhaustion, high altitude, etc.) make it harder. Combat in unfamiliar/strange locales (underwater, aerial, magical environments, etc.). Combat while infected with a disease, under the effects of a curse. Mis-information gleaned about an opponent can make a fight harder and so on...

And yeah I'm sorry but the terrain is part of the exploration pillar just as much, if not more that combat, I find it strange that you regard terrain as a combat effect. Terrain literally determines the available modes of movement along with how fast you can move outside of combat.

Is it really strange? What does traveling across sand do compared to traveling across a thick brush? Both are difficult terrain, both are simply doubling the time it takes to get where you are going. Even if you do something that deals damage to the party while they walk, if they can survive it, it doesn't matter unless they get in combat.

Some of the other things don't matter at all. Cold and High Altitude would have no impact on combat at all. Meanwhile things like rain ONLY matter for combat. Meanwhile the disease or curse, well depends on what they are. Certainly a curse that causes you to take extra damage makes combat harder, but if I added that into a combat... I'd just do it as hex or Bestow Curse. But is an environmental factor exploration? I don't think it is.


Orrrr... It's a climable surface whose DC is set by the DM, not the DMG and as such I can say it's an easy climb during the day if you can clearly see or know the path of handholds... a moderate climb at night under full moonlight and you can clearly see or know the path of handholds... a hard climb if you can't see the marked hand holds and only have moonlight to climb by and very hard if you are climbing totally blind on a moonless night.

In this way darkvision could be an asset if you don't use torches or lanterns and are climbing under moonlight (perhaps you can see gradations of gray where the handholds are marked... it's up to the individual DM) but it doesn't trivialize or auto win this challenge.

Sure, you can make up DCs, but then you are simply ignoring the guidelines in the book, which means those guidelines aren't actually doing anyone any good.

It does work with baseline rules... optional rules can be used to enhance it as my example showed.

Right, but we aren't asking about enhancing the situation, we are trying to get into the baseline situation.


Yep because it's totally not a trope in adventure fantasy... not at all... :rolleyes:

Of course it is a trope in fantasy. That doesn't mean it is a good trope, or that I'm not going to complain when we literally tied the child to their bedroll and had someone on watch for just this occasion, but the child slips free and wanders off anyways.

One issue with tropes is that while the DM may want to implement, the players know them too, and many tropes irritate people who realize that rubbing two brain cells together solves the issue.


A high level party should be exploring the planes... and yes that can be a challenge for even them.


Is it? Have you looked at the rules for the Planes in the DMG?

The plane of Fire uses the Extreme Heat rules, so no penalty if you have water. They have strong winds that have no effect outside of combat, and thick ash. Probably counts as precipitation since it says the air is breathable. So, carry water and get some face wraps for the ash, and you are perfectly safe to travel the plane of Fire.

Sure, you can add things to this, but per the written rules in the DMG, that Plane of Fire is no more dangerous than a desert. And you have to be careful adding things, because if you say that (for example) there is a field of burning embers they have to cross, taking 1d4 damage per round... if you need them to travel for three hours they are dead. That is 600d4 damage per hour, or an average of 4,500 fire damage total. The only way to survive that trek is Fire Immunity... and as soon as they have it, the trek is no challenge. Because the only challenge was surviving the damage. It is why damaging terrains are so rarely useful as a mechanic.

But, let's look to a different plane, what about Hades? It has one of the nastier effects in the planes right? The only rule for Hades is that you make a DC 10 wisdom check vs Exhaustion at the end of every day. If you get six levels of exhaustion you are permanently turned into a worm creature.

Is this really a challenge? I mean, sure, exhaustion after every sleep is bad, but we are talking high level players. They have access to Heroes Feast for advantage, they have access to Mordenkainen's Mansion to sleep in a pocket dimension instead of the plane of Hades. They might be able to just make the rolls, a 15th level cleric is likely making the save at +10... meaning they literally cannot fail.

And if things get too close to bad? Well, if they got to the plane via PLane Shift... then they can leave whenever they want, before it even gets close to this Larva transformation. So again, any real challenges beyond a single easy saving throw at night have to be manufactured by the DM, there are no guidelines for any other challenges in exploring the planes, and most of them are this way. Very easy DC saves, once a day, sometimes for nothing but an alignment shift, which is aggravating for entirely different reasons.
 

EDIT 2: What control was taken away from the players in this situation... they can choose not to go after the child or they can choose to go after him/her.

I don't get why you keep offering this as a choice? Would your players really say "We live the child to die a horrible death"?

Heck, I know a few DMs where if you tried that you'd immediately run into the kids sobbing parents as the DM tries to guilt trip you over your decision for the next few sessions, so even if you are heartless enough to abandon a child, then you still have the self-interest in not wanting to deal with that.
 

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