D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

I'm traditionally a DM. But in the 10% of the time that I get to play, I really dislike sitting there for hours while nothing happens, and a DM just describes clouds, role-plays with himself, and has us spend 3 hours of precious game time following a lead in a mystery that means nothing. Cut to the chase. We're all adults. We have to realize that we're playing a game - skip to the good part.
It's like playing Monopoly and having to stop to change the tires of your metal car token.
That sounds like an exaggeration (if it's not, I feel for you). The DM has a responsibility to keep the game moving, and make sure the players are aware of their goals and have an idea how to achieve them. That doesn't mean that everything the PCs encounter should exist for their benefit, or even so they can interact with it. I believe that the world is the world, and it revolves around the celestial fire body (usually), not the PCs.
 

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Others might prefer more verisimilitude to their areas; that there isn't a constant "tell" of what isn't important.
That doesn't mean that everything the PCs encounter should exist for their benefit, or even so they can interact with it.

Again, it doesn't need to be important or super beneficial, as long as its not 'nothing'. A room dosn't need to relate to your main goal to still be pat of environmental story telling. and something that you can't interact with shouldn't be in the game to begin with, unless it's to hint at future interaction (like a dragon flying in the distance).
 

Again, it doesn't need to be important or super beneficial, as long as its not 'nothing'. A room dosn't need to relate to your main goal to still be pat of environmental story telling. and something that you can't interact with shouldn't be in the game to begin with, unless it's to hint at future interaction (like a dragon flying in the distance).
I don't mean something the PCs can't interact with, just something that doesn't exist in the game for them to interact with. PCs can do what they want, and if they do, the DM needs to react.
 

My experience as a player in a few maritime adventures is that they tend to take away player agency. The captain makes you tend to mundane tasks, you get blown far off course and stranded, you watch fellow party members get keel hauled, you get trapped in tight quarters combats by raiding parties and can't escape short of diving into shark infested waters, you leave behind all the contacts you had on the mainland and connection to that campaign world, you're basically trapped in a floating hamlet where everyone knows you (bad for rogues), you're usually at sea for months with little happening, it typically involves several boring sessions of preparation just to launch the expedition, there aren't good rules for it in the core books (and thus it's out of the scope the core game can handle), heavily armored characters sink and drown easily. I could go on.
You're right about heavy armour - it doesn't work well at sea and should likely thus be eschewed by PCs.

Other than that, however, I could work around most of your points with relative ease. First, if the PCs own the ship and either crew it themselves or hire the captain and crew it's less likely they'll be swabbing decks all that often and almost certain they won't get keelhauled. The lack of good rules means I just have to make up my own; not like I haven't already done that for almost every other aspect of the game, so no big deal. If it's a maritime campaign from the start or close the PCs aren't likely to have many mainliand contacts of importance to lose; or they instead have contacts in multiple ports rather than all in one place (and their connection to the campaign world is the sea). The rogue's going to have to do her thieving in port rather than on board, but that's no different than doing her thieving in cities rather than while travelling overland with the party.

As for being trapped in tight quarters and-or having to dive into shark-infested waters, those are just acceptable risks. And keep in mind when you attack another ship you're inflicting those same risks onto your foes - it goes both ways.

Being at sea for months with little happening isn't a problem provided those months go by fairly quickly at the table. Could be as simple as "Players: We're fully geared up and ready to sail. We'll go west unless something catches our attention otherwise, and if we make it to the land of Injuli we'll decide from there what comes next." DM: OK. You leave port on April 6 under fair skies and steady winds. <rolls some dice> On April 12 the weather turns foul, with a storm coming from the north. What do you do?" {{{role-play through dealing with storm}}} DM: "Carrying on, on April 24 you see land to the southwest, probably an island. What do you do?" {{{players decide what to do, maybe the island gets explored}}} DM: "Your voyage continues. On April 28 at daybreak you see the sails of two ships to the northeast. It soon becomes clear they are faster than you, and they've altered course toward you and are approaching fast - as things stand they'll catch you within the hour." {{{party have to fend off some pirates}}} Etc., with time allowed all along for inter-character discussions and RP as and when desired.

And that could all be just one session, or more if the island exploration led to anything involved; and you've been at sea three weeks already.
 

Being at sea for months with little happening isn't a problem provided those months go by fairly quickly at the table. Could be as simple as "Players: We're fully geared up and ready to sail. We'll go west unless something catches our attention otherwise, and if we make it to the land of Injuli we'll decide from there what comes next." DM: OK. You leave port on April 6 under fair skies and steady winds. <rolls some dice> On April 12 the weather turns foul, with a storm coming from the north. What do you do?" {{{role-play through dealing with storm}}} DM: "Carrying on, on April 24 you see land to the southwest, probably an island. What do you do?" {{{players decide what to do, maybe the island gets explored}}} DM: "Your voyage continues. On April 28 at daybreak you see the sails of two ships to the northeast. It soon becomes clear they are faster than you, and they've altered course toward you and are approaching fast - as things stand they'll catch you within the hour." {{{party have to fend off some pirates}}} Etc., with time allowed all along for inter-character discussions and RP as and when desired.

And that could all be just one session, or more if the island exploration led to anything involved; and you've been at sea three weeks already.

This is what I am going to try for the wagon train portion of Horde of the Dragon Queen, with the exception that each character can choose to do something each day if they want to -- reminding them that those choices will slow down that part of the journey. Sometimes that will be a good thing, sometimes it won't. But I will leave that choice up to them.
 

It's not about what they know, it's about what they think they know. If they think they know the door isn't supposed to be opened, they'll stop trying. If they think they know that a door is trapped with nothing behind it, why even open it?
But how are they coming to these conclusions; and are these conclusions correct?

Sure they can use divination or scrying to see what's there, but the point remains that they're still seeing what's there.

You don't want to confuse your players, though.
You might not, but I do.

It's frustrating being confused and it makes you feel dumb. Now, I don't have a problem with an occasional misdirection, but they shouldn't be misguided often as it feels like they can't trust information and therefore do not have true agency over their decisions.
These things are not related IMO.

Just like in real life, decisions are often made in absence of complete and-or correct information. What matters is they still get to make the decisions and have the agency to do so; and if they eventually learn not to blindly trust everything and to double-check unfamiliar info sources then I'm doing it right.

It's not a very voluntary type of exploration. A party that decides doing too much might make their lives harder will randomly guess (most likely the open archway) to see if they can just get to the boss and leave. If they take the wrong turn, they wasted time and resources and are forced to backtrack to try door number 2, then door number 3 until they find the correct door.
I think the difference between us is that I don't at all mind backtracking, and resource management is a factor. If we explore into a dead-end trap and two of us get mangled by it, then's the breaks; and now we have to use the resources required to patch the injured up. Or if one of us gets killed by it, now we're down a person and have to adapt.

It's not going to stop us exploring as much as we can of the place. (truth be told, pretty much the only thing that ever prevents complete and detailed exploration of an adventure site is if the party's on a time-sensitive where their goal is to get in, get it done, and get out; and even then sometimes they'll go back and more fully explore the site later)
 


Nothing totally is a punishment. It's NOTHING. It's a waste of time and session time is precious enough. Don't give me a hallway with eight doors, only to have seven of them be empty and the last one leading to ANOTHER hallway of doors. At that point I'm gonna check out and not bother going into details anymore, I'll just go "we check all the doors until something happens.".
I guess I don't see session time as quite that precious; there'll always be another session, and another after that, and I for one plan on living long enough for a great many after that.

A stretch of finding nothing also makes it that much more interesting when you find something. Finding something every time quickly reduces that, maybe not quite to the level of 'ho-hum' but much closer than if the somethigns were scattered among nothings.
 

Good DM'ing and dungeon design are essential for creating that exploration layer in this scenario.

The DM could wrap up the seven rooms as a few sentences: "The seven rooms you check out all have the faint smell of chocolate, but outside of that they are all just common quarters with little or no belongings." That, to me, would be good DM'ing rather that having us open each door, look under each bed, etc. Of course, if the DM was trying to open the plot up, by say, having each room holding a piece of the plot - that is good too. But, timing and description is key.
Good point; and after the first two or three rooms all being the same the players will most likely come up with some sort of quickie SOP for any further rooms that are similar. Frequent occurrence, too: many castles or dungeons or abbeys or such would have lots of small rooms for staff (or monks, in an abbey) and checking all those out can get tedious.

The concern is that if the DM batches and skips over those similar rooms too quickly she risks either a) telegraphing that there's nothing there or b) not giving the players a reasonable chance to find what is there e.g. the fourth room on the left has a secret door in the back wall leading to a passage...

Then there is dungeon design. It is something I really have a hard time wrapping my head around sometimes. It needs to flow, can't be too big, be ecologically sound and maintain logic. A hard thing to do sometimes, as is evident by the many books I have. Some would take our group 10 sessions just to get through. ;)
Ten sessions is about our long-term average for a typical dungeon or adventure; slightly lower at low level and slightly higher at high.
 

The "you find an empty room" model of dungeon exploration is boring to me, and a waste of time. This is why my group hated Dungeon of the Mad Mage - it's around 75% "empty" (or at least, without interesting features). If a room doesn't have a challenge to the party or elaborate on why the party is there, it doesn't need to be there. Edit lean, guys.
What if part of the challenge is mapping? (we map everything!)

What if the empty rooms are there, in purely meta-design terms, as potential safe places for the PCs to sack out- in other words, they're there with the specific reason of not providing a challenge?

And, most important, what if the empty rooms are there to, again at the meta-design level, instill a sense of complacency among the explorers such that when something does arise they're maybe a bit more off their guard?
 

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