D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Hussar]

There is nothing to fix because nothing is broken. A lack of something, even if missed, isn't a problem. Its called a design choice. And the design choice of 5e is that the survival elements of exploration aren't the main focus of the game.

Which is basically are restatement of the base point we've been making all along. 5e does not really have much in the way of an exploration pillar. But, we got told in no uncertain terms that not only is exploration a part of the game, but, it's apparently the KEY part of the game, more important than any other part of the game.

 

[Aldarc]

This is a true criticism of 5e and applies to Social Interaction and even (though much less so) to the combat pillar.

The 5e DMG is really poorly indexed and organized. To the point of, if you don't know what you're looking for (and what you're looking for isn't a magic item) you're going to have a tough time finding it.

The basic "exploration pillar" explanation seems less than a page long (I'm estimating because I'm looking at it in DnD beyond and not the actual book right now) and has no example play loop. While the DMG has multiple chapters that are about exploration, it doesn't fit them together and doesn't properly tell a new GM how to integrate them into his game. It certainly doesn't tell a new GM the various ways to conduct exploration and that if he wants to do a "survival heavy" game what needs to be emphasized and what needs to be deemphasized/eliminated.

So in that sense, I think you are correct. A new GM might well have serious problems (and frankly an experienced 2e, 3e DM might also have issues because rather than trying to decipher the DMG he will bring his 2e/3e experience in which can lead to square peg/round hole problems) - which could be solved with significantly better organization, a good play loop example etc.

This is fundamentally a big issue for me, and I think this is why 5e, on the whole, lends itself to a "wing-it" approach by many GMs, especially when in conjunction with the greater latitude that 5e gives GMs in "rulings, not rules."

I should add, that, from this point of view, overland travel from A to B is not necessarily "exploration" at all, if it isn't set up to reveal new things or make new life choices during the travel itself. If I go from Neverwinter to Phandalin, and I beat up a few bandits on the way, get lost for a day, but eventually reach my destination having learned nothing particularly interesting, this trip wasn't exploration.

This is one reason why I am now more inclined to rethink the whole "Three Pillars of the Game" thing in a way that actually takes into account what the players are actively doing or the play loops involved.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Here is the beginning of my promised post. I'm having less time than I expected to write out how I would approach it, but I thought I would at least start. More to come.

The party finds a journal on the body of a slain adventurer. In the journal are the usual miscellaneous things, but also notes on some sort of tower, building, fortification- not sure. Between the pages are a couple of foolscap sheets that are a rubbing of a stela somewhere. Notes on translations of an old Elvish script that discuss astrological effects on moon light. The party spends a little time and discovers that the former owner pieced together some clues on a lost outpost and has an idea where it might be.

“Sorry you’re dead, buddy. But we’ll continue your work.”

The party is a fairly basic one, with a fighter, wizard, cleric, thief err rogue, and a ranger all at 6th level. They have a strong front line, scouting / flanking ability, and magical support. After spending some coin and referencing some larger scale maps, they figure out that there are two paths they can take. The perhaps safer one is a three week journey by sea from Grossburg to Vurzendorf, home base to a number of traders that trap beasts for their hide and others that grow and harvest spices that proliferate in the area. There is also an old road that leads from the outpost to a large ruin that was discovered by the first explorers here. While the ruin seems to have a very different culture to what is expressed in the journal, the road could make for some easier travel part of the way. Also, there would be a chance for resupply in Vurzendorf. If the party forgets to pick up something in Grossburg they have a second chance there. It would take six weeks of time to get from Vurzendorf to the area of the site.

The second option is a little quicker. As you would have to sail past the site to get to Vurzendorf, you could instead stop roughly at the point closest to it on the shore. This would be only a two week trip by sea, and four week trek through deep forest. It should be 2-3 weeks shorter travel time, although they won’t have access to the port of Vurzendorf and any goods or information that might be there. The ship certainly isn’t going to wait for them, as it would be a couple of months at best at anchor.

Another factor is that after the wizard reads through the journal and associated notes, assisted with a comprehend languages, she states that there is a door that opens only by the light of the Harvest Moon. When the party gets ready to go, that is about ten weeks away. Given the choice of a potentially easier nine week trip or a hard six week trip, the party chooses the six week long route as it gives them a broader window of time. If they are a couple weeks early that gives them more time to scout the area.

They’re off!

Current assumptions:
The cleric prepares detect poison and disease, purify food and drink, lesser restoration, protection from poison, create food and water, water walk. This takes about half his capacity.

The wizard prepares burning hands, comprehend languages, longstrider, misty step, fly, tiny hut, water breathing. This takes about half her capacity.

The ranger’s favored terrains are forest and wetlands, which coincidentally are the only terrains the party expects to travel through. Hurray!

The fighter is wearing his heavy armor while travelling.

The rogue is actually a thief! Notably, they are rather good at climbing.

This is an interesting beginning to the set-up. I am curious what you will do as this continues.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Deciding the DC for challenges... isn't homebrewing... it's making a ruling and is called out specifically as a procedure in the game.

I was speaking more broadly than just that single example. The point was you were trying to make darkvision have a "negative" in that they were unable to see the colored handholds, turning a no-check climb into a DC 20 climb, by climbing in the dark on a moonless night, doing this to show it isn't an "auto-win". And sure, you can decide that is DC 20, even though the examples given indicate it shouldn't be. I've seen DMs call for a DC 15 check to climb a tree, even though per the rules, there is no check at all.

But, how much of a negative is darkvision in this scenario actually? Because, if we are at DC 20 with it, would you say it is literally impossible to do that same climb without it? And if we are choosing to make the climb in these circumstances then clearly there is a heightened need for stealth that is making such a dangerous climb what we want to do. A climb that was impossible becomes clearly doable.

And depending on the level of the party and their resources, it could be actually far easier than you think. So, yes, Darkvision isn't spider-climb and doesn't let you automatically climb a cliff, but it does let you even attempt a task that would otherwise be impossible, so I'm not sure what you were trying to show beyond the fact that the DM can set and DC they want.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Hardly. If you want to run challenges that differ from the baseline, you may need to make a few tweaks to adjust things to your preferences.

If you want to run combats that differ from the baseline (no yoyo) then you may need to make a few tweaks to adjust things to your preferences.

But combat can be run without changing healing. I know. I've done it for years. However, to make exploration even a thing you seem to need to remove or curtail multiple spells such as goodberry, create food and water, purify food and water, unseen servant, Leomunds Tiny Hut, Catnap, Mage Hand, Light, Continual Flame, Produce Flame, Create Bonfire, guidance, and others. Then you need to either discourage foraging or load the party with so much extra stuff that buying and carrying enough rations and water is a challenge. Followed by if they purchase a cart and donkey making sure that those resources are threatened. Then you need to homebrew in additional challenges or change DCs. Then you need to address class and race abilities, like the Ranger, but also things like the Genie Warlock's vessel, or the Firbolgs ability to speak with animals and curtail the obtaining of magical items like the bag of holding, decanter of endless water and others.

You compare these two like they are equal, but changing how a healing spell brings you up from 0 hp to all of that? One is clearly much more comprehensive and far reaching than the other.

Let's stick with the car analogy. I don't think it's at all like putting a new engine in though.

Everything already exists; you're not making anything new by saying creating food is off the table for this campaign. So all of those options exist in the vehicle. However, the owner's manual doesn't necessarily explain how to use all of the options, so you may have to figure out how they work for yourself.

No, the issue isn't that the manual doesn't tell you how to use the options, it does, the options are just heavily weighted to one side. You are ripping out and either replacing or leaving bare a lot of parts, and then saying it works well of the lot with only a few "minor tweaks"

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is one reason why I am now more inclined to rethink the whole "Three Pillars of the Game" thing in a way that actually takes into account what the players are actively doing or the play loops involved.

Yeah, if there is one thing this thread has shown me it is that the three pillars model the designers were trying to frame the game with just fundamentally does not reflect the reality of the game. There have been a few things people have posted that I've read and thoughts "there is no way that is exploration" but at the same time, are clearly not combat or social interactions, so I think one key issue is that there is either a lot of unnamed material floating around the pillars, or Exploration is trying to be far too broad to make for a useful discussion.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But combat can be run without changing healing. I know. I've done it for years. However, to make exploration even a thing you seem to need to remove or curtail multiple spells such as goodberry, create food and water, purify food and water, unseen servant, Leomunds Tiny Hut, Catnap, Mage Hand, Light, Continual Flame, Produce Flame, Create Bonfire, guidance, and others. Then you need to either discourage foraging or load the party with so much extra stuff that buying and carrying enough rations and water is a challenge. Followed by if they purchase a cart and donkey making sure that those resources are threatened. Then you need to homebrew in additional challenges or change DCs. Then you need to address class and race abilities, like the Ranger, but also things like the Genie Warlock's vessel, or the Firbolgs ability to speak with animals and curtail the obtaining of magical items like the bag of holding, decanter of endless water and others.

You compare these two like they are equal, but changing how a healing spell brings you up from 0 hp to all of that? One is clearly much more comprehensive and far reaching than the other.





No, the issue isn't that the manual doesn't tell you how to use the options, it does, the options are just heavily weighted to one side. You are ripping out and either replacing or leaving bare a lot of parts, and then saying it works well of the lot with only a few "minor tweaks"

You can run exploration without needing to change exploration. The default works. Depending on your party composition, it can be made easy, but I've heard plenty of folks complain that combat is too easy (if you follow the baseline). Other parties won't even have access to many/any of the spells you mention, and therefore it won't be a concern there at all.

You don't need to curtail or remove any spells, unless you want to run a more survival oriented game than the baseline assumes. Then, sure, you need to make a few adjustments. It's not difficult for an experienced GM. IME, new GMs are fine with just following the baseline (they have enough on their plate learning the craft, without fiddling needlessly with the rules).

Some of the solutions that are presented on these forums to address yoyo healing are far more complicated than the modicum of effort it would take to remove the abilities that make survival easy. You don't need to ban each spell individually, just use a catch-all like my friend did for his desert campaign. If the players aren't sure whether something qualifies, they can simply ask.

It is actually that the manual doesn't tell you how. All of the pieces are there. A group can (consciously or subconsciously) opt in or out just by their choices at character creation. An all fighter group, for example, is going to find survival much more challenging than a party made up of a ranger, cleric, druid, and wizard (and even there, spell selection will play a significant role as to how easy or not survival is).

Moreover, this is just survival, which is only one aspect of exploration that not all groups want to engage with. As has been pointed out, there are numerous other types of exploration encounters, from mysteries to wonderment to clocks. If you don't like them, that's fine. That's a matter of playstyle. Pretending they don't exist however, is like squeezing your eyes shut, plugging your ears, and humming loudly. It's your choice to do so, but it doesn't actually change reality.

 

[Hussar]

You can run exploration without needing to change exploration. The default works. Depending on your party composition, it can be made easy, but I've heard plenty of folks complain that combat is too easy (if you follow the baseline). Other parties won't even have access to many/any of the spells you mention, and therefore it won't be a concern there at all.
/snip

Really? Parties will have no access to many/any of the following spells: "goodberry, create food and water, purify food and water, unseen servant, Leomunds Tiny Hut, Catnap, Mage Hand, Light, Continual Flame, Produce Flame, Create Bonfire, guidance"?

I mean, a lot of those are pretty bog standard spells. We're not talking about pulling some spell out of Dragon Magazine from five years ago. These are (mostly) in the PHB. I suppose if you have a group of zero casters it might happen, but, that's a pretty non-standard group. And, let's not forget, it's not just the spells. Several class/races get speak with animals, for example. More races have darkvision than don't. So on and so forth.

So, no, the default doesn't work. That's what we keep trying to tell you and others. That no, the default doesn't work. The default is that exploration challenges become trivially easy, to the point where they can be pretty much ignored after a few levels.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, if there is one thing this thread has shown me it is that the three pillars model the designers were trying to frame the game with just fundamentally does not reflect the reality of the game. There have been a few things people have posted that I've read and thoughts "there is no way that is exploration" but at the same time, are clearly not combat or social interactions, so I think one key issue is that there is either a lot of unnamed material floating around the pillars, or Exploration is trying to be far too broad to make for a useful discussion.

This is why I'm trying to be careful to talk about exploration challenges. People have lumped in all sorts of things under the umbrella of exploration that isn't a challenge, so, since it's not a challenge, the game doesn't really care about how you resolve it. There's nothing to fail, there's no real consequences, so, narrate and move on.

Wandering around a safe village, shopping and having lunch might fall under the exploration pillar, but, it's certainly not a challenge and it should be quite obvious that we're not talking about that in context. Technically, talking to the shopkeeper while buying bread falls under the social pillar, but, we certainly don't consider a challenge, and we certainly don't worry about dealing with it.

So, when I'm talking about how exploration is made trivial by character powers, I'm only talking about challenges. Which, I suppose, if you are including EVERYTHING in the exploration pillar, saying it's trivial means that most of the game becomes trivial. I can see why that might rub folks the wrong way. It's certainly not what I meant, but, I can see that.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

So, no, the default doesn't work. That's what we keep trying to tell you and others. That no, the default doesn't work. The default is that exploration challenges become trivially easy, to the point where they can be pretty much ignored after a few levels.

The default doesn't work... at your table. That's what "we" have been trying to tell you and others. The default works... at our tables.
So here we are.

Thread done?