D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Chaosmancer

Legend
The ‘unable to find ones way’ is predicated on having an intended way to go to their destination in the first place. @Ovinomancer is ignoring that. Normally when people set out on a journey - hike/drive etc - they know which way they intend to go and they know their destination. Even if it’s to explore what on the other side of that mountain.

A ranger always knows there they are and won’t accidentally take a wrong turn. It doesn’t mean the pass of Caradhras won’t be blocked, forcing him to take another way and it doesn’t give supernatural directions to locations he hadn’t already planned a route to.

Cool. The Pass of Caradhras is blocked and we take a week to go around it.

We still reach our destination, correct? We still cannot fail to reach it, no matter what you do or say, because the Ranger can't get lost. They may fail to unnerringly get there on the first try, but they will still always reach the destination.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I don't get it.

The combat pillar is not the exploration pillar.

If your first, primary and main solution to the players having too easy a time with exploration is to make it a combat, then that is not a solution rooted in the exploration pillar, because combat is its own pillar of the game. Called the Combat pillar.

So, considering that the vast majority of counters to exploration solutions, have been to call on combat... doesn't that mean that the Exploration pillar lacks the tools to counter those solutions?
 

TheSword

Legend
Cool. The Pass of Caradhras is blocked and we take a week to go around it.

We still reach our destination, correct? We still cannot fail to reach it, no matter what you do or say, because the Ranger can't get lost. They may fail to unnerringly get there on the first try, but they will still always reach the destination.
Well Saruman will be doing his best to stop them so I wouldn’t say always
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Really? If I have a ticking clock set to go off in a minute, then it goes off in a minute. Clocks measure time, that is their only purpose.

If I have barbarian, a cleric, and a rogue fighting gnolls.... how long until their hp hits zero? Can you give me a definitive time on that? No, you can't. You'd need a lot more information. You'd need levels, feats, abilities, actual HP values, AC values, to hit values, what types of gnolls, how many of them are there, what abilities do they have, what is the terrain, what is the environment... and even then you could not tell me with 100% accuracy when the fight would end, because none of that takes into account the d20 and how misses and critical hits would change the flow of battle.

A combat is not a ticking clock. Yes, there is an endpoint, but that's like saying your bank account is a ticking clock because it can run out of money. That isn't what the phrase means.





It only creates urgency in the fact that the players have limited hp and eventually an infinite tide of monsters will take them out. Also because they probably don't want to waste time on fights that have no reward or purpose. It therefore makes decisions more difficult because they are forced to rush, to avoid getting dragged into combat.

None of that makes the actual content of the exploration harder. As I have explained, many times already. All you are doing is punishing players via the combat pillar for things that they are doing in the exploration pillar. Then seemingly patting yourself on the back for making a good exploration pillar because of it.

If you are making a sandwich, being attacked by ninjas would make making that sandwich more difficult, not because making the sandwich is difficult, but because fighting ninjas is difficult. It doesn't make for a harder sandwich recipe.



I have, and Jeremy Crawford talked about magical projectiles, like fireball. But, he did specify this


If you can't read the Twitter it says "Unless a spell says otherwise, you can't cast it at someone or something behind total cover."

So, does the spell say otherwise? It certainly seems so since the spell states "The servant springs into existence in an unoccupied space on the ground within range." There is no requirement to even have line of sight to the space it is appearing in, let alone any sort of line of effect. And it is "springing into existence" not traveling anywhere. Since spells always do what they say, a spell that does not say you need to see your target doesn't need you to see the target, just like Shatter and a few other spells.



Oh noes! Fingers are pointing at me because I said a DM might make a ruling! The horror and shock, the pure shame I must feel. How dare I ever say that DMs might make a call different than the one you think is right.

Because, shockingly for how you guys keep trying to rake me over the coals of ultimate shame... that's all I did. I acknowledged that a DM might see this as a grey area. So, point all the fingers at me that you want. I fully admit that I am guilty of declaring that a DM might make a ruling you disagree with. Not that I would. Not that anyone I know ever has. Just that based on other issues that have come up involving a similar grey area, that it could be possibly something a DM might rule.



If you have no interest in changing your mind, why do you keep posting? See, I actually do want to create some understanding, and I find examples help by turning vague ideas into more concrete sets that people find it easier to wrap their heads around.



Because if fighting monsters is an exploration challenge, then what's the combat pillar of the game? Do we have two pillars, exploration and social? If so, man do the designers have egg on their faces from talking about a non-existent combat pillar.

Oh, the monster doesn't want to fight and we talk instead? Great, we generally refer to talking to NPCs (which a monster is) the social pillar of the game. Which, again, is not the exploration pillar of the game, because those are supposed to be different pillars.
At this point, we are going in circles and all I'm hearing is "I don't actually like exploration, so it's bad" and "I'm very permissible with the rules and handwave a lot, so exploration challenges are easy and therefore the rules are bad" and also some kind of attempt at saying that different pillars of the game shouldn't intersect. You're making very little sense to me. So I'm going to leave off on the conversation with you.
 

The combat pillar is not the exploration pillar.

If your first, primary and main solution to the players having too easy a time with exploration is to make it a combat, then that is not a solution rooted in the exploration pillar, because combat is its own pillar of the game. Called the Combat pillar.

So, considering that the vast majority of counters to exploration solutions, have been to call on combat... doesn't that mean that the Exploration pillar lacks the tools to counter those solutions?
Are you suggesting that the game is a more enjoyable experience when you combine the three pillars? I agree!
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
You are the only one in this thread claiming that combat is part of the exploration pillar. @iserith clarified that wandering monsters are consequences for some actions during exploration, but not necessarily part of the same pillar. Exploration can lead to combat or social e encounters. It's really not that difficult to understand.

No, my claim is literally the opposite. That monsters ARE NOT an exploration challenge.

If your only tool to counter an exploration solution is to cause it to lead to combat, then exploration has no answers to challenge that solution.
 

Laurefindel

Legend
I still haven't seen someone answer the question though in the seeming reverse.

Let us say that the Ranger can never get lost, that they can always retrace their steps and get back to their starting point.

The Tower of Evil is in the Dark Forest, forests are the favored terrain. How do they NOT find the tower eventually? They can never get lost. They can never be walking in circles and have no idea. So, how do you have it so that they do not eventually find their destination?
I guess given enough time, the ranger will eventually find it by process of elimination if they adopt a rational and systematic approach, but that's still a shot in the dark (every time). Unless the tower is magically hidden of course; then the ranger is no better than anybody else. So magic maze shenanigans still work on the ranger.

There are two ways of using google map. You can use the directions app that will tell you exactly which way to take from your starting point to your destination. Or you just use the map with your location services turned on. You'll know where you are. You won't be lost. You can even activate tracking to make sure you don't double down. But finding your destination is not guarantied. Still, it's way better than having no map at all.

I see the ranger "cannot-be-lost-by-nonmagical-means" as the google map with location services on, not as the direction map, while everyone else is stuck with a paper maps. Well, not quite, but that's a close analogy.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
Are you suggesting that the game is a more enjoyable experience when you combine the three pillars? I agree!


Yes, obviously you can combine them. That is not my point.

I asked, pages and pages ago, "what can the DM use to combat these solutions to the exploration pillar" and I have gotten three answers.

1) That isn't a solution because those aren't the rules (fairly useless quibbling overall)

2) I send monsters at them (this is combat or social, not an exploration challenge, so once the combat is over... we continue using these solutions to bypass the exploration)

3) There is a ticking clock and if take the time to do things the effective way, you all lose/die ect.


So... there seem to be no answers. Which might tie into why some people have issues with exploration... because the most common answer is more combat.
 

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