D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Arrahed]

I always thought the exploration pillar was about discovering the history and background of the places the players visit, not about obstacles and survival.
It's less about how to cross the chasm and more about discovering what might have created the chasm and how if might be connected to the characters' stories.

Crossing a chasm might be trivial for higher level characters, but if there is something exciting to discover in the depths, they might not even want to cross it right away.

I always used this approach to provide my players with context for their adventures without doing plain lore dumps.

 

[Asisreo]

Why is my druid alone?

But, okay, I'll play. Give me a level range please. Is this a 1st level druid or a 10th? Because that's going to make a serious difference.

Let's see - Create Bonfire/Produce Flame solves light problems. Thunderclap destroys both doors as neither are immune to thunder damage (although that's going to be REALLY noisy), so, I'm not trapped. What else do I need to do here?

Sure, if we want to theory craft ludicrous situations, we can do that. About par for the course in this thread.

You're druid isn't alone. Your allies include a berserker barbarian friend, a thief rogue, a life cleric, and a conjuration wizard.

Level 10. The room already has lit torches in it providing light.

Is a room with 2 doors all that ludicrous?

 

[Hussar]

The irony here of one post RIGHT ABOVE THE OTHER:

Investigation. "When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check." (PH, page 177)

Perception is for finding things that aren't deliberately hidden. They might be "obscured and easy to miss," as per the text, but they're not hidden.

Basically, if you can stand where you are and potentially see/hear/taste/smell/feel the thing, use Perception. If you have to wander around looking under or behind or inside of things, use Investigation.

If a character is searching for a secret door, the DM can resolve any uncertainty as to the outcome a couple of ways - via a passive Wisdom (Perception) check or a Wisdom (Perception) check, depending on how the player has described their approach. If the mechanism for opening it isn't obvious, the character may have to try to deduce how to open it, which may call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check. That's DMG page 103-104.

Which is it? I was told that there were IRON CLAD mechanics for determining this. That it was not up for debate in any way. You you two give me conflicting answers right after each other.

Hell, you don't even quote the same rules. Different books to resolve a bog standard, common action.

 

[Hussar]

Your responses suggest a lot about the kinds of games you play or run - or at least the one you have in your head to stake out your position. There seems to be very broad handwaving with certain spell effects on the environment, traps that seems to mostly trigger the same way, and there doesn't seem to be meaningful resource expenditure during the adventuring day since the casters are just lousy with spell slots. That's very interesting. This is almost never the case with a game with a strong exploration element in my experience. Some of these tools you listed would get you to the next step in an exploration challenge or make certain things easier, as I've pointed out, with a cost or a trade-off. If you're able to ignore those costs or trade-offs in your game, but not in mine, perhaps there's something going on in your game worth examining more closely. That is, if you actually want the exploration pillar to have some teeth.

You're ignoring the basic point. There IS NO TRADE OFF. The characters are giving up incredibly minor resources to be able to completely bypass challenges. Again, remember, I hadn't actually listed anything that actually cost any resources. I also hadn't listed the shopping list of class abilities either. Nothing I listed was a cost in any real sense.

You also say several times, as do others, that the DM decides or that something is "DM-dependent." Well, yes, the DM decides everything in the game where it comes to what is in the environment and what the result of adventurer's action is. That's across all pillars - combat, exploration, and social interaction. When and whether rules come into play to resolve an action a player has stated is purely up to the DM and nobody else. Hopefully the DM is reasonably consistent about adjudication so that players can make reasonably informed decisions. But make no mistake, the DM always decides. That's just D&D 5e. If that's not to your liking, I don't know what to tell you.

Really? So, if the monster has a 15 AC and my character scores a 15 on his attack, it's the DM's decision as to whether I hit or not? If the monster has 4 HP and I deal 5 damage, the DM decides if that monster is incapacitated or not? If I roll a 16 for my initiative, and the monster gets a 12, does the DM decide that the monster attacks first? Maybe the DM gets to declare that the monster is 6 feet away, not five, and thus not in your reach.

Well, that's certainly one way to play. I'm not terribly interested in Calvinball and I'm pretty sure that any DM who insisted that his rulings overruled these kinds of mechanics would be looking for new players PDQ.

So, no, the DM does not "always decide". D&D is not a rules light game or a rules absent game. It is a very rules heavy game and those rules are pretty iron clad. DM's who ignore those rules are generally considered bad DM's.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Good grief. Modify Memory is a FIFTH level spell with an extremely narrow use. You're seriously comparing the impact of a spell that won't even see play until the mid levels, at the earliest, to spells that multiple classes get at 1st level and often aren't even an expendable resource?

Like I said earlier, this discussion is pointless. The false equivalencies that keep getting brought up are so frustrating.

You've either forgotten what we were talking about or you're shifting goalposts. What I had said earlier in the thread was that as characters gain levels they get tools to bypass all pillars of play, not just combat or social.

IMO, exploration is actually the hardest to bypass simply because, unlike the other two, it encompasses so much. Even if the players take spells to bypass X, Y, and Z, I can just use A, B, and C to engage them instead.

I'll give you an example from one of the games I played in about an encounter that evoked curiosity and wonder, which you were so dismissive about. We found a site that resembled Stonehenge, but on a much more massive scale. We began investigating, and over the better part of a six hour gaming session, we uncovered that it was the titan equivalent of a supercomputer that had been built by Cronus. It functioned by raising/lowering the stone pillars which created harmonics in the constant wind. By figuring this out we were able to find a hidden chamber that contained a being left by Cronus, which had been originally intended to replace humanity before Cronus was slain. This being wasn't at all hostile, however, but rather curious, having never met humans but having watched them for eons through the supercomputer.

We were by no means forced to overcome the site. We could have easily ignored it and kept adventuring. Instead, it kept the entire group engaged for the better part of six hours. Unearthing it's secrets significantly changed the course of that campaign, particularly the epilogue. Such are the benefits of adding encounters that evoke curiosity and wonder. However, much like a good combat or social encounter, you do have to put in a little more effort than just placing a "waterfall" in front of them and describing how "wondrous" it is.

 

[Hussar]

You're druid isn't alone. Your allies include a berserker barbarian friend, a thief rogue, a life cleric, and a conjuration wizard.

Level 10. The room already has lit torches in it providing light.

Is a room with 2 doors all that ludicrous?

No, but the lone druid was.

Ok, let's examine what would be reasonable (certainly not min/maxed here, just what I would consider to be reasonable assets for this party to have.)

So, we've got a 10th level druid, cleric and wizard.

Lessee, our cleric has a choice of 14 spells (I'm giving him an 18 wis, again, reasonable) plus the spells on his life cleric list - which means I don't have to worry about bless, cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, and raise dead, those are automatic. I also have 5 cantrips. (NOte, this list is not complete - just the 14 spells I have to choose)

So, Cantrips - Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying, Mending
1st level - Detect Magic, Guiding Bolt, Shield of Faith, Healing Word,
2nd level - Calm Emotions, Locate Object, Silence,
3rd level - Spirit Guardians, Tongues, Mass Healing Word,
4th level - Divination, Banishment,
5th level - Commune, Flame Strike,

So, our cleric can use Divination and Commune as information gathering spells. Detect magic, and locate object if needed. Has all the healing and goodies, and can bless as well. Not really missing anything. All without a single magic item.

Our Druid (we didn't specify so, I'm going to ignore Land vs Moon for a bit - either has TONS of options available. Moon druids can shapechange into things with Blindsight, for example - that Giant Wolf Spider makes an absolutely fantastic scouting option.) But, again, 14 spells to choose from and 4 cantrips.

Cantrips: Create Bonfire, Druidcraft, Thorn Whip, Thunderclap
1st - Detect Poison and Disease, Entangle, Fairie Fire, Goodberry, Speak with Animals
2nd - Pass Without a Trace, Moonbeam, Heat Metal
3rd - Conjure Animals (SO many things you can do with this), Speak with Plants,
4th - Wall of Fire, Stone Shape
5th - Commune with Nature, Insect Plague

Looks pretty good to me. I'd go with that with a druid.

Ok, so now we've got our wizard. Now to be fair, this is a bit campaign dependent. How hard is it to get new spells in a campaign will vary. So, we'll stick with the basic 2 per level plus the 6 at 1st for 24 spells. Note, I cannot have more than 4 5th level spells since I can't get more than that free. That being said, all I really need in there are:

Alarm, Comprehend Languages Find Familiar, Identify, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, TIny Hut.

So, 7 of my free 24 spells and I've covered everything on my problem list. Gee, that was hard. Whatever shall I do with my other SEVENTEEN FREE CHOICES?
-----------------------
So, now, I can read anything that's on the desk, detect anything magical, find anything, search any trap, and get through any door. All without expending a single resource.

Next?

 

[Hussar]

You've either forgotten what we were talking about or you're shifting goalposts. What I had said earlier in the thread was that as characters gain levels they get tools to bypass all pillars of play, not just combat or social.

IMO, exploration is actually the hardest to bypass simply because, unlike the other two, it encompasses so much. Even if the players take spells to bypass X, Y, and Z, I can just use A, B, and C to engage them instead.

I'll give you an example from one of the games I played in about an encounter that evoked curiosity and wonder, which you were so dismissive about. We found a site that resembled Stonehenge, but on a much more massive scale. We began investigating, and over the better part of a six hour gaming session, we uncovered that it was the titan equivalent of a supercomputer that had been built by Cronus. It functioned by raising/lowering the stone pillars which created harmonics in the constant wind. By figuring this out we were able to find a hidden chamber that contained a being left by Cronus, which had been originally intended to replace humanity before Cronus was slain. This being wasn't at all hostile, however, but rather curious, having never met humans but having watched them for eons through the supercomputer.

We were by no means forced to overcome the site. We could have easily ignored it and kept adventuring. Instead, it kept the entire group engaged for the better part of six hours. Unearthing it's secrets significantly changed the course of that campaign, particularly the epilogue. Such are the benefits of adding encounters that evoke curiosity and wonder. However, much like a good combat or social encounter, you do have to put in a little more effort than just placing a "waterfall" in front of them and describing how "wondrous" it is.

And your entire challenge could have been solved with a single Speak with Plants spell. Or Commune. Or a host of other things.

Hey, by the way, waterfalls are darn wonderous. I was told that they are down right ethereal. Sorry, it's a bit of an inside joke.

My point still stands. Sure, you might have modify memory by 9th level. Great. Meanwhile, the group has been bypassing exploration challenges for the LAST EIGHT LEVELS.

 

[Eubani]

And your entire challenge could have been solved with a single Speak with Plants spell. Or Commune. Or a host of other things.

Hey, by the way, waterfalls are darn wonderous. I was told that they are down right ethereal. Sorry, it's a bit of an inside joke.

My point still stands. Sure, you might have modify memory by 9th level. Great. Meanwhile, the group has been bypassing exploration challenges for the LAST EIGHT LEVELS.

Or just have the Rogue check for traps and pick any locks, zero resources bar time spent and a near zero chance of failure. Mind you anyone in that group could have the Perception skill and Thieves Tools Proficiency.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And your entire challenge could have been solved with a single Speak with Plants spell. Or Commune. Or a host of other things.

Hey, by the way, waterfalls are darn wonderous. I was told that they are down right ethereal. Sorry, it's a bit of an inside joke.

My point still stands. Sure, you might have modify memory by 9th level. Great. Meanwhile, the group has been bypassing exploration challenges for the LAST EIGHT LEVELS.

Speak with Plants wouldn't have worked. This thing was millennia old. Far longer than any plants would have been around.

How would you have gone about solving that with the three yes/no questions that Commune grants? (Not that we had access to it anyway, since we had a druid instead of a cleric.)

Bypass SOME exploration challenges. Not all.

Charm Person is a level 1 spell and is an effective social bypass.

Sleep is a level 1 spell and is an effective combat bypass.

Moreover, Charm Person and Sleep are broadly applicable. I'll grant you that they won't handle every social/combat scenario. Sometimes you want a bit more subtlety than Charm can provide, or the target isn't a humanoid. Sleep falls off somewhat as levels increase. However, they do have fairly broad application with respect to the social and combat pillars, often effectively functioning as an "I win" button.

Whereas, for exploration, you have one spell for preventing things from sneaking up on you. Another for sneaking yourself. Another for moving objects without touching them. Another for reading text your unfamiliar with. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... They each function very effectively for the purpose they're designed for, but the scope of exploration is much broader than either combat or social. I have yet to see a caster who can effectively cover combat, social, and everything that exploration can throw at them. This really feels like white room theorycrafting on your part.

 

[Asisreo]

No, but the lone druid was.

Ok, let's examine what would be reasonable (certainly not min/maxed here, just what I would consider to be reasonable assets for this party to have.)

So, we've got a 10th level druid, cleric and wizard.

Lessee, our cleric has a choice of 14 spells (I'm giving him an 18 wis, again, reasonable) plus the spells on his life cleric list - which means I don't have to worry about bless, cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, and raise dead, those are automatic. I also have 5 cantrips. (NOte, this list is not complete - just the 14 spells I have to choose)

So, Cantrips - Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying, Mending
1st level - Detect Magic, Guiding Bolt, Shield of Faith, Healing Word,
2nd level - Calm Emotions, Locate Object, Silence,
3rd level - Spirit Guardians, Tongues, Mass Healing Word,
4th level - Divination, Banishment,
5th level - Commune, Flame Strike,

So, our cleric can use Divination and Commune as information gathering spells. Detect magic, and locate object if needed. Has all the healing and goodies, and can bless as well. Not really missing anything. All without a single magic item.

Our Druid (we didn't specify so, I'm going to ignore Land vs Moon for a bit - either has TONS of options available. Moon druids can shapechange into things with Blindsight, for example - that Giant Wolf Spider makes an absolutely fantastic scouting option.) But, again, 14 spells to choose from and 4 cantrips.

Cantrips: Create Bonfire, Druidcraft, Thorn Whip, Thunderclap
1st - Detect Poison and Disease, Entangle, Fairie Fire, Goodberry, Speak with Animals
2nd - Pass Without a Trace, Moonbeam, Heat Metal
3rd - Conjure Animals (SO many things you can do with this), Speak with Plants,
4th - Wall of Fire, Stone Shape
5th - Commune with Nature, Insect Plague

Looks pretty good to me. I'd go with that with a druid.

Ok, so now we've got our wizard. Now to be fair, this is a bit campaign dependent. How hard is it to get new spells in a campaign will vary. So, we'll stick with the basic 2 per level plus the 6 at 1st for 24 spells. Note, I cannot have more than 4 5th level spells since I can't get more than that free. That being said, all I really need in there are:

Alarm, Comprehend Languages Find Familiar, Identify, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, TIny Hut.

So, 7 of my free 24 spells and I've covered everything on my problem list. Gee, that was hard. Whatever shall I do with my other SEVENTEEN FREE CHOICES?
-----------------------
So, now, I can read anything that's on the desk, detect anything magical, find anything, search any trap, and get through any door. All without expending a single resource.

Next?

For reference, I have control of the other characters who will act as reasonable players. I had their spells and stats, but I'll assume your spell lists for them all.

Your character is the druid.

I'll let you know what the party does, you can choose what the druid does and I'll let you know how it all pans out. I'll let you go first, though, so you don't feel like you're doubling up on someone else.

Again, its up to you how you want to proceed.