D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Chaosmancer]

60 lbs.? Yikes - that's a big upgrade over the 1e version I'm used to.

Tedious; but yes, this works - for pressure-plate style traps only.

Unseen Servant wouldn't trip illusions. If the floor ahead is illusory, you won't see the Servant interact with it and so the illusion remains believable to you. It also won't trip magical traps e.g. glyphs or symbols.

Whether it sets off trip wires and the like depends on whether or not you rule the Servant has any physical form.

If it is moving and interacting with every brick, it would certainly press down on the trip wire.

But okay, illusory pit traps. Everyone just takes a stick and drags it on the floor ahead of them as they walk, You don't even need magic to solve that problem.

And, seriously, how many magical glyph traps are in all of your dungeons? Is everyone using magical traps that the rogue can't interact with?

 

[Hussar]

If it is moving and interacting with every brick, it would certainly press down on the trip wire.

But okay, illusory pit traps. Everyone just takes a stick and drags it on the floor ahead of them as they walk, You don't even need magic to solve that problem.

And, seriously, how many magical glyph traps are in all of your dungeons? Is everyone using magical traps that the rogue can't interact with?

It is rather ironic though. The solution to making exploration matter is to use exploration elements that can only be resolved through the use of magic, thus basically proving the point I was making all the way along - that magic in the game makes exploration very problematic. But, apparently, we can't use magic to solve the problems, because the cost is too high, but, the traps and exploration elements can't be resolved without magic, and around and around we go.

But, apparently, none of this means that there are any problems with the exploration pillar.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I see where you are going but I have to disagree with your conclusion. Time pressure in exploration can indeed lead to a wandering monster. However, to then say that introducing a wandering monster is solving the exploration pillar "problems" with the combat pillar is presuming quite a bit, IMO. The players can choose many different courses of action when presented with a wandering monster - courses of action which may or may not flow into the other pillars of play. While some of the party is searching for traps and secret doors and/or figuring out how to disarm/activate the same, others might be watching out for trouble. If the PCs on watch perceive a wandering monster approaching they can alert the others. Sure everyone can drop everything they're doing and engage solely in the combat pillar. Or a few of the PCs could attempt to parley with said monster while the others continue to search/disarm/activate (social and exploration pillars). Or a few of the PCs could hold back the wandering monster at a pinch point while the others figure out the secret door escape route (combat and exploration pillars). Or the players could funnel (with force and/or communication) said monster towards the trap they discovered (exploration plus combat and/or social pillars) Or all the PCs could fall back to a room they passed on the way (exploration). Even if those on watch didn't notice the wandering monster until it was upon them, these options are all still viable outcomes.

Yes, people could choose to have only half the party fight the monster. Or they could decide to talk to it.

But, I have never once seen a serious party who kept exploring while a monster was killing their friends, unless it was a "grab the hostages" type situation. The only other time I saw it is the time a player decided to have his character pick up gold coins instead of fighting the boss, because they didn't want to anger it.

But, again, you have taken an exploration challenge and said "you took the slow and sure way of solving it, so here is a dangerous monster" which triggers one of the other two pillars. It isn't exploration any more. And if the monster is gone... then they go right back to the slow and sure method they were using. Because the exploration challenge seems answered, the only question is how many monsters are they going to fight.

All that said, the wandering monster is only one possible outcome of taking too much time. Environmental effects, timed traps, NPCs off-camera making progress in a ritual or moving captives elsewhere, etc. all could be part of the consequences for the party taking too much time. In addition to the "ticking clock", exploration offers plenty of "tools" to ratchet up difficulty: exhaustion; difficult terrain; obstacles; traps; illusions; puzzles; anything, really, that can impose conditions or drain resources.

A timed trap that does what? If it is something that seals off the dungeon and kills everyone inside if they aren't done in 30 minutes, then you don't have time for 10 minute searches of rooms. Heck, you might not have time to reach where you are going, depending on the size of the area.

If there are NPCs doing a ritual, are we aware of them? How did this NPCs have time to set up a trap-filled hallway that is causing us so many issues? There are a lot of questions here for you to just say things like that. And, also, what happens if the party doesn't use magic and the rogue just does their thing. Or the Barbarian says there is no time and runs through the traps?

Again, you can add time pressure to anything, but time pressure isn't an exploration challenge. All it is doing is preventing solutions my setting it up so that you can't use them. I could also design locked doors that melt any thieve's tools put in them, so the Rogue can't unlock them. That doesn't mean that the rogue is a bad solution for unlocking doors, it means the scenario has been set up to prevent me from using that solution.

 

[iserith]

Well, let's dig into this. The spell specifies that the servant "can perform simple tasks than a human servant can perform". So, what kind of complex trap are you talking about that I need to see the parts of? Most traps have three types of triggers. Pressure Plates, trip wires, some sort of lever or magic.

And any trip wire is easily taken care of. Pressure plates would have to be able to take more than 60 lbs of force, which is a lot. I don't need to know how the trap works to trigger it this way, just like you never needed to know what a trap did to trigger it with a ten foot pole.

Levers? Well, the unseen servant can certainly pull levers. So, if I'm let's say 30 ft back outside of the room and pull a random lever, how many actually dangerous things can happen to me? There are very few things that would be dangerous to the person pulling the lever, that would be dangerous to people who are 30 or more feet away.

But, there is still magic. Well, how is it a magical trap? Does it trigger if a creature gets into the area? Then the Unseen Servant triggers it. They have enough qualities to count as a creature. They don't trigger it? Then if I can see the trap, they can begin messing with it. Maybe they can, or maybe they can't do enough to it to disarm it, but at a certain point of the trap being unable to be seen and unable to be interacted with, there isn't much more that the rogue would have been able to do differently except get caught in the trap.

Tell you what: Why don't you tell me what kinds of traps can't be triggered by an unseen servant? Because if your answer is effectively "none," then we're just not going to agree on this point because we're not playing the same game.

Then it is better that it happened to the unseen servant than the rogue. And if the passage is completely cut off and there is nothing we can do... then we leave the dungeon and go looking for something else.

The problem with your example is though... no DM would do that, well, I guess Gygax and some hardcore 1e DMs might, but what you have described is a single point of failure for the entire dungeon. What would you do if you set that trap up, and the rogue rolled a 1? Kill the rogue, and lock the dungeon forever, making the entire journey a waste of time?

You should never put a trap in you aren't willing to have go off, and something that destroys the Unseen servant but doesn't hurt a party member is a win, because that trap going off and killing or harming a party member is far far worse.

And if it is meant to destroy the thing the PCs are there to get... well, first of all, then the trap is usually obviously telegraphed, because the entire goal is to avoid setting off the trap in the first place. And then we still have a formless, flying invisible force that can interact with anything we need to interact with, making the entire endeavor far safer than having the rogue try and reach whatever it is we need to reach.

You are making assumptions as to the example I used. I never suggested other parts of the dungeon couldn't be explored after the trap went off. Just that that passage was blocked. Such is the problem with examples in forum discussions - people see the things that support their point and ignore the stuff that doesn't.

But otherwise, yes, the unseen servant is destroyed, which protects the rogue. Great! Except now the noise has drawn a wandering monster to the area and the exploration challenge of making progress down that hallway to see what's there still isn't over. All that has been accomplished is making it potentially harder to resolve and it'll be another 10 minutes to make a new unseen servant. Hardly a victory.

But wandering monsters aren't an exploration challenge. What you are saying, in effect, is "do I solve the exploration challenge, by creating a combat challenge". And, at some point, you run out of monsters. Or, you run out of logical places for the monsters to come from. If we've cleared an entire floor of the dungeon then retreat to a room and lock it to summon the servant... where is this monster coming from? From down the stairs? Okay, good, then we killed it now instead of dealing with it later.

And the opportunity cost of knowing Unseen Servant is far far lower than the opportunity cost of the rogue's life. So, it is certainly worth having.

Which leaves us... countdowns. Which sure, countdowns are great ways to counteract what I'm talking about. But that isn't providing a challenge Unseen Servant and these other spells can't overcome, that is forcing the players to act inefficiently because they don't have the time to be safe. But not only is it nearly impossible to have a countdown for every single exploration, but it again is just tilting away from the exploration pillar and having us deal with a different aspect of the game instead.

It depends on how you frame the dramatic question: "Can I resolve this exploration challenge without drawing unwanted attention, taking too much damage, or spending a lot of resources?" for example. Not "Can I resolve the exploration challenge at any cost?" In the case of the unseen servant and the falling block trap, the answer to the first question is "No."

In any event, the game shifts between challenges in various pillars regularly, depending on what's going on. I'm not sure what you're driving at by implying this is an issue of some kind.

 

[Faolyn]

Tell you what: Why don't you tell me what kinds of traps can't be triggered by an unseen servant? Because if your answer is effectively "none," then we're just not going to agree on this point because we're not playing the same game.

Butting in, the servant is described as a shapeless magical force. It almost certainly doesn't have any weight (unless you decide that all magical force creations, including Bigby's hands and Tenser's disks have weight as well), so it's not going to trigger pressure plates or pit traps. Because it's shapeless, it will "flow" around any tripwires, levers, or other triggers. At least not on its own. You could likely direct it to do so, but that means you'd have to know where the trap is, and the trap would have to be sensitive enough to be triggered by a Strength 2 entity (30 pounds of force).

 

[iserith]

Butting in, the servant is described as a shapeless magical force. It almost certainly doesn't have any weight (unless you decide that all magical force creations, including Bigby's hands and Tenser's disks have weight as well), so it's not going to trigger pressure plates or pit traps. Because it's shapeless, it will "flow" around any tripwires, levers, or other triggers. At least not on its own. You could likely direct it to do so, but that means you'd have to know where the trap is, and the trap would have to be sensitive enough to be triggered by a Strength 2 entity (30 pounds of force).

All good points. The question is how permissive is the DM in handwaving a lot of this stuff and just saying unseen servant solves the problem. I mean, it was even suggested by Chaosmancer that it counts as a creature. This is like the mending spell I discussed well upthread. Some DMs have it fix anything in any state of disrepair when the spell itself is actually pretty clear on its limitations. And if the DM is just very permissive and handwavy, they can hardly complain it's the fault of the rules when players are walking all over their exploration challenges!

 

[Faolyn]

All good points. The question is how permissive is the DM in handwaving a lot of this stuff and just saying unseen servant solves the problem. I mean, it was even suggested by Chaosmancer that it counts as a creature. This is like the mending spell I discussed well upthread. Some DMs have it fix anything in any state of disrepair when the spell itself is actually pretty clear on its limitations. And if the DM is just very permissive and handwavy, they can hardly complain it's the fault of the rules when players are walking all over their exploration challenges!

The servant is definitely is not a creature. This has been established in a couple of different Sage Advice answers.

And that's very true. The rules may not be always clear, but they're often clear enough.

 

[Lanefan]

Levers? Well, the unseen servant can certainly pull levers. So, if I'm let's say 30 ft back outside of the room and pull a random lever, how many actually dangerous things can happen to me? There are very few things that would be dangerous to the person pulling the lever, that would be dangerous to people who are 30 or more feet away.

Lightning bolt trap here: "Hold my beer".

But, there is still magic. Well, how is it a magical trap? Does it trigger if a creature gets into the area? Then the Unseen Servant triggers it. They have enough qualities to count as a creature.

Now that's a leap of faith. Valid house rule for a table, perhaps, but canonical? Open to debate, at the very least.

Then it is better that it happened to the unseen servant than the rogue. And if the passage is completely cut off and there is nothing we can do... then we leave the dungeon and go looking for something else.

The problem with your example is though... no DM would do that, well, I guess Gygax and some hardcore 1e DMs might, but what you have described is a single point of failure for the entire dungeon. What would you do if you set that trap up, and the rogue rolled a 1? Kill the rogue, and lock the dungeon forever, making the entire journey a waste of time?

Assuming, of course, the following:
--- the passage is the only way forward (i.e. there's no other known way to reach the party's goal)
--- the passage is not itself a red herring
--- there's no hidden bypass that the party have thus far either failed to find or (more commonly IME) not even looked for
--- the PCs don't have means of getting past the blockage e.g. passwall, dimension door, or a few hours work from a Dwarf.

'Cause yes, any DM worth her salt would do this now and then.

You should never put a trap in you aren't willing to have go off, and something that destroys the Unseen servant but doesn't hurt a party member is a win, because that trap going off and killing or harming a party member is far far worse.

Here I agree: if the Servant does set if off that's good use of resources. My argument is that I think some are being far too generous in what they allow the Servant to do.

 

[Lanefan]

If it is moving and interacting with every brick, it would certainly press down on the trip wire.

But okay, illusory pit traps. Everyone just takes a stick and drags it on the floor ahead of them as they walk, You don't even need magic to solve that problem.

And if the illusion is good enough (i.e. the senses it fools include touch) your stick idea might not work. But it's still something most parties don't generally do, IME.

And, seriously, how many magical glyph traps are in all of your dungeons?

Lots. Glyph of Warding is a 3rd-level Clerical spell that lasts until triggered.

Hell, the PCs put them up sometimes to defend their campsite, if they're sacking out indoors in a dangerous area.

 

[Asisreo]

I don't really consider it a challenge to read notes on a table that are clearly visible., Looking through a bookshelf to see what is on it isn't a challenge. Looking through a door and seeing obvious things on the other side isn't a challenge.

Even the rogue picking the lock. If they failed... so what? They have plenty of time to try again. Or, if you won't allow that, then the door could be destroyed by the Barbarian or the any of the casters.

You presented a room with doors, and yes there were actions the PCs could take to learn more information, but nothing that would require any sort of real challenge. So, how does this help demonstrate anything about challenging the players?

The first thing I need to do is give context. Mind, as much as he says this is a "whiteroom scenario," I built this actual dungeon with actual lore and actual structure.

Part of the challenge of exploration is, quite simply, the mystery. The cleric flipped through the notes and now a lich might be somehow involved. But is it behind the iron door? Behind the stone door is a dark room with an orb and a pedestal with corpses. Is it a trap? An ambush? Is the orb helpful or harmful? What was that clicking sound from the book? What did it do?

There are various ways to go about it, but the point of the exercise is that there isn't anything to beat in the core of exploration.

---

I don't think the exploration pillar is even supposed to be about the challenge. Sure, you've got traps and obstacles and puzzles just like you've got monsters and terrain and spells in combat, but ultimately exploration, to its very definition, is the act of uncovering mysteries.

Its the experience of discovering something new. There is no "autowinning" exploration. In fact, doing something like teleporting past several dungeon rooms means you've probably auto-failed exploration because you've lost what could be valuable context.

Assuming a fair and honest DM running a fair and honest adventure, these contexts can be more powerful than the strongest magic items. You could convince a dragon to join your side if you know what he wants or you could trick the guardian into letting you past. You could stop a fight or engage in it.

Exploration is a pillar not because its identical to combat but because it shares its importance. A game with no exploration isn't just a game with no choices, its a game with no context. And once a game loses context, it becomes nothing more than just a string of mismatched talking and combat, which ultimately becomes boring for even the most mechanical players.