D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Yora]

I think it's not. The whole idea seems fundamentally flawed to me.

It kind of has a faint smell of GNS.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think it's not. The whole idea seems fundamentally flawed to me.

It kind of has a faint smell of GNS.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, it has a full-on stench of GNS. So what? I don't agree that this discussion does, but I also find this kind of genetic fallacy argument tedious and dull. It's something reached for to try to shut down discussion.

 

[Aldarc]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, it has a full-on stench of GNS. So what? I don't agree that this discussion does, but I also find this kind of genetic fallacy argument tedious and dull. It's something reached for to try to shut down discussion.

It seems a bit absurd IMHO that I would be accused of "a faint smell of GNS" on the basis that I'm proposing to recontextualize the game in terms of phases rather than D&D's comparatively niveau Three Pillars. Oops. Sorry about that, Yora. Best I can tell, it's must be "Forge speak" because they don't like it or something. Who knows? Yora's antecedents weren't clear, so I didn't want to touch it because it had "a faint smell of badwrongthink accusations."

It's not as if game phases are all that unique of a game concept. It's not something I ever would have identified as being GNS or Forge speak. Game phases are fairly ubiquitous in board games. And it's part of TTRPGs that I have raised in this thread already: e.g., Ryuutama, AiME/The One Ring, etc. Something akin to phases are also part of games like Pathfinder 2 with its Modes of Play: i.e., encounters, exploration, downtime. But Io forbid that anything has even the faintest smell of GNS, am I right?

 

[Mort]

Note the differences here. You had to pick very specific classes and feats (an optional rule that cannot be assumed) and a non-core class to do this. A bog standard bard with no feats isn't particularly any better at social encounters than anyone else.

Really? A PC with an assuredly high charisma and likely expertise in the relevant social skill is no better at social challenges than anyone else? OK then.

Again, context. Sleep and Hypnotic Pattern are both non-renewable resources. You have a limited number of them. All the way through, we've been VERY careful to talk about stuff that costs the party absolutely nothing to bypass exploration challenges. And, there's a bit of confirmation bias going on here. Yup, that one time you remember hypnotic pattern really crushing the encounter, but, just as often, Hypnotic Pattern might have zero effect.

But I thought spells were trivial resources that could always be applied to minimize the exploration pillar, which is it?

You said this doesn't happen in the combat pillar. I pointed to examples (including specifics) where it does/can.

Again, "properly built" is considerably different from "Out of the Box" character. No one in this thread is talking about someone going out of their way to break the system. These are bog standard, straight out of the box characters. Heck, we haven't even added in feats to the mix AFAIK.

So a totem barbarian from the PHB is now breaking the system (and somehow not straight out of the box)?

And you've been shown how your Ranger example doesn't actually break the system either.

 

[Nefermandias]

Obviously this scenario would also involve a time pressure, otherwise the choice would not be a choice. Possibly where your thinking is going wrong here is in the phrase 'begin the adventure'. I'm not designing wilderness travel to waste time until we get to the adventure. I'm designing an adventure, part (or, perhaps, all) of which is set in the wilderness.



My time pressures are never an illusion, they are they to put choices in the game. This whole conversation is very strange. You seem to be imagining ways that someone could design a clock so that it didn't matter. But obviously I wouldn't design my clocks that way. That's the whole point. And of course I could let you arrive early. But the camp where the cultists are is fortified, and you'd have to sneak or fight their way in. And defeating the evil mages would be more difficult without the Magic Item of Plot Device. But if you get the magic item of plot device, you will either arrive just on time (in which case you almost certainly win and feel like heroes) or you will arrive late. Because the detour will be designed to potentially slow you down if you make the wrong choices.

But, unless you totally screwed up the detour, you have the Magic Item of Plot Device and so still have a chance to save the day by using it to banish the summoned whatever. Or, if you show up late and failed to get the magic item, then the whatever is rampaging and you're too weak to stop it. So you either get killed or run away in shame having failed miserably. Which is fine.

This exchange made me realize that the whole issue here is the clash between the "storyteller DM" mindset and the "present a scenario and let the players' choices and dice determine the outcome DM" mindset.

It has become abundantly clear that the people here advocating for the non-existence of the exploration pillar are in fact, the DM's who cannot have their perfect plots ruined by random chance.

Since things like weather tables, random encounters, navigation and the player's choices of what supplies to bring along introduces a whole new layer of uncertainty, these people tend to dislike the pillar. Especially overland travel, which seems to be what they are focusing the most with their attacks.

Just my two cents.

 

[Aldarc]

This exchange made me realize that the whole issue here is the clash between the "storyteller DM" mindset and the "present a scenario and let the players' choices and dice determine the outcome DM" mindset.

It has become abundantly clear that the people here advocating for the non-existence of the exploration pillar are in fact, the DM's who cannot have their perfect plots ruined by random chance.

Since things like weather tables, random encounters, navigation and the player's choices of what supplies to bring along introduces a whole new layer of uncertainty, these people tend to dislike the pillar. Especially overland travel, which seems to be what they are focusing the most with their attacks.

Just my two cents.

With all due respect, but "LOL!" I don't think you know the respective posters here well at all if this is the accusation that you plan on using in earnest, and it's kind of insulting, if not condescending.

Here are your two cents back. Fully refunded.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This exchange made me realize that the whole issue here is the clash between the "storyteller DM" mindset and the "present a scenario and let the players' choices and dice determine the outcome DM" mindset.

It has become abundantly clear that the people here advocating for the non-existence of the exploration pillar are in fact, the DM's who cannot have their perfect plots ruined by random chance.

Since things like weather tables, random encounters, navigation and the player's choices of what supplies to bring along introduces a whole new layer of uncertainty, these people tend to dislike the pillar. Especially overland travel, which seems to be what they are focusing the most with their attacks.

Just my two cents.

I think the exploration pillar is woefully underserved and exploration abilities negate rather than accentuate what is there. I am also very much not a storyteller GM. In fact, my largest current hurdle with D&D is the fact that I have to provide so much as GM. I don't think your argument holds as a generality. It may be true for specific GMs.

 

[Aldarc]

I think the exploration pillar is woefully underserved and exploration abilities negate rather than accentuate what is there. I am also very much not a storyteller GM. In fact, my largest current hurdle with D&D is the fact that I have to provide so much as GM. I don't think your argument holds as a generality. It may be true for specific GMs.

That's the thing. I think that freeform or winging-it approaches to exploration is more subject to GM force than more structured play processes/loops. So I'm not sure how this argument that criticizing the present nature of the exploration pillar somehow equates to hating exploration and essentially wanting to railroad through pre-prepared plots.

 

[Imaro]

I didn't say it wasn't interesting, I said it wasn't a challenge. Choices aren't challenges, otherwise the challenge is over the moment you make a decision.

I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but I've seen you dismiss many things as not challenges or challenges in other pillars. Could you perhaps tell us how you define a "challenge" and perhaps give an example or two of exploration challenges... even if from other games?

 

[TheSword]

Yeah, this is just pointless. Constant gainsaying and obviously arguing for the sake of arguing is fun and all, but, I'm just not interested.

I have stated, categorically, that I have problems with exploration pillar challenges. I have stated pretty clearly why I have these issues - that character resources are such that most challenges aren't challenges at all and are trivialized by the massive number of options that the characters have. I have stated how I would resolve this issue.

I really don't have much more to add at this point. You refused to even discuss my possible solution, and have simply gone into "there's no problem here" mode to reply to everything. I simply don't know how to even approach this anymore since it's pretty hard to have a conversation when one side absolutely refuses to accept the basic premise of the discussion.

I really have to wonder what your purpose was here @TheSword. @Faolyn as well. You have done nothing to add to the conversation, other than repeatedly claim that none of the issues raised are actually issues. I mean, good grief, YOU claimed that there were rules for building businesses and now you're insisting that I show you where the rules are. I'm tired of the goalposts on rollerskates.

Well if you won’t confirm what basic rules the game is missing that means the game needs some arbitrary dice pool mechanic. We probably don’t have much more to say.

My purpose here is the same as it has been all along. To refute the suggestion that Exploration is the “Worst Pillar”, when for me it is the most enjoyable and essential.

To be clear, I’m not saying that every area of the rules are perfect or that homebrew is a bad thing. I think the opposite. If you want to use a dice pool mechanic to a part of your game I support that. I just think demanding it be part of the core books is a fools errand. Just like the opposition shown by @tetrasodium to my attunement houserule means I wouldn’t expect it to be in the core rules either. I don’t get dirty guts’d about it though Hussar.