D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Tr
Unfortunately, I forgot to preface my post with some assumptions and stances on my part. I will do so with my next substantive post. Until then, it is my understanding that clerics and wizards can prepare up to their level + spell casting modifier in spells per day (PHB, pgs 58, 114). I am assuming at this point that they have an attribute of 18 or 20, which seems typical with my limited experience with 5e.

Longstrider is to boost the rogue's movement rate to better enable flanking maneuvers and/or a sneak attack.

And, I forgot that rangers get spells early. I'm not sure how that will impact things. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
True on spells prepped, the wizard has 10. The cleric picks 10 and gets 2/spell level free for domain spells, so they will have 16.

Longstrider is generally a poor spell and the rogue doesn't really need it for mobility due to cunning action.

Wizards do not need to prepare ritual spells that are in their spellbook to cast them as rituals. Most will not prep those spells, as waterbreathing, once obtained, us a 24 hour duration ritual, tiny hut rarely has any time pressure on it, and same with comprehend languages.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The default doesn't work... at your table. That's what "we" have been trying to tell you and others. The default works... at our tables.
So here we are.

Thread done?
Ok, fair enough.

Then how would having a suite of rules in the DMG that would help us, but, since you can ignore them as you please, hurt you?

And, from what I've seen here, "works at our tables" means, "I have played the game for many years, and have developed a suite of changes in playstyles, player expectations and actual mechanics that makes the default work at our table." And I say this because EVERY response to criticism has been, "well, in my game, I've changed this, this and this rule". Which basically means that no, the default doesn't work. You've simply internalized all the changes and assumed that that's the default of the game.
 

Full agreement



Partial agreement.

If the players have no information on the difference of the paths (left or right, up or down) then their decisions aren't meaningful, it is random. A decision made with no information lacks meaning, and it lacks engagement.
It's hard to fully describe in a short sentence but that's why I made a point of saying the choices are meaningful. If, for example, no matter what choices the players make they end up at the same place having faced the same challenges? THEN it's not a meaningful choice.
 

It is a key part of the game and the genre... but it is treated in the same way it is in heroic adventure fiction... as an inconvenience, a drain on resources, for mixing up pacing, as a minor challenge and sometimes only to showcase the capabilities of adventurers.
Ah, so, what are you arguing with us for? You are stating, straight up, that exploration is an "inconvenience". IOW, trivial.
 


So just so I'm clear here, you're defining Exploration specifically as an action in the game that is resolved using a rule that can be pointed at in the book.
Is that a fair statement?
I would define that as an Exploration Challenge which is a subset of all the elements of the Exploration pillar, which, apparently, people want to include with things like simple exposition and world building stuff. But, if it's an actual Exploration Challenge, then, yes, it's an action in the game that is resolved that is using the rules.
 


Heh, I've got a couple of new players (at least new to me, very much not new to the game) at my table right now. We were doing a bit of light dungeon crawling - dealing with meanlocks in a mine (from the Candlekeep Mysteries module). Lots of fun, and wow, annoying as all hell when the baddies can teleport, more or less at will, any time they get out of bright light. Fun.

What sticks out in my mind was an interaction with one of the new players as we were moving forward through the dungeon.

Player: I'm in the back watching for anything coming up behind us.
Me: Ok, no problem, the party begins...
Player: No, hang on. I'm looking EVERYWHERE behind us. I'm looking up, I'm looking left and right, I'm looking down...
Me: Yes, yes. I got it, you're on guard behind us.
Player: I want to be absolutely clear what I'm doing. I'm actually turning my body around every few steps to make sure that I'm looking behind us.

This went on for long enough that it stuck out in my mind. Here is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Players who have been trained by DM's who think that challenge=Mother May I and Calvinball. I actually stopped the game at that point and explained that they really, really didn't have to do any of this. I will never intentionally screw over the party like that. ((Granted, in the next freaking scene I forgot about the damn wizard's flying familiar keeping watch above when the meanlocks dive bombed the party - :erm: Damn)) But, mistakes aside, I don't ever do this kind of stuff. You will never, ever hear me ask, "So, how are you checking for traps?" "How are you searching the room?" That kind of stuff is just something I will not do anymore.

So, when people talk about that being a big part of the exploration pillar, it just totally turns me off from the whole idea.
 

Here's my continuing discussion of how I handle overland journeys, continued from post #1360.

Alright! Omissions first.

I missed Domain spells. So the cleric gets knowledge of four more spells (two 1st and two 3rd) dependent on their domain. It doesn't really change my calculus, however, as I don't see any spell I would choose in addition to the ones I selected previously. Maybe pass without trace. Furthermore, those would be spells effectively chosen at character creation. But, especially for life and nature clerics, it will certainly grant more capacity to prepare other spells. Also, completely forgot about rangers having spells at nearly the get-go. My bad. As of this date, I’ve only run fighters, clerics, paladins, rogues, wizards, and warlocks in my 5e game, and just in the past year. Thanks to Hussar and Ovinomancer for pointing those out.

Ranger Spells: Hunter’s Mark, Goodberry, Speak with Animals, Pass Without Trace

Opinions

As far as the three pillars go, Combat, Social Interaction, and Exploration, I think they are fairly rarely used in isolation from each other. In combat there is the option of parley and surrender, you have to find the reclusive sage in the city, and trekking through the Deep Forest can bring the ire of the Wild Hunt. So I don’t think you can have an overland journey without the possibility of combat, but it also shouldn’t be the only alternative to reaching the destination.

If we decide the main conflicts are:

Man vs. Self
Man vs. Man
Man vs. Nature
Man vs. Powers (Society, Technology, Culture / Tradition, as well as Magic in our case)
Man vs. Fate

Then Man vs. Self, Nature, and possibly Powers and Fate are our themes with our focus primarily on Nature.

When we trek overland what can go wrong? What happened to Messrs. Lewis, Clark, Stanley, Polo, Zheng He, &c? Problems include loss of food, lack of water, getting lost, incapacity / death from disease, encountering hostile forces, incapacity / death from exposure, severe cold and heat, incapacity / death from falls, landslides, drowning in fast water, and others. Equipment is lost leading loss of protection from the elements or inability to travel as safely as was once able.

So what should our team of adventurers do then?

They should have shelter (tents, &c.), sufficient food stocks (eight weeks worth), extra ammunition and spell components (for revivify, &c.), and other equipment and supplies as appropriate. This is going to be heavy! At this point our wizard mentions that she has tiny hut prepared, and the cleric has create food and water. This lessens the amount of needed equipment significantly, as tents, food, even cooking gear is actually the majority of the needed weight.

For me, in my games, here is the first needed rule change:

No Ritual Magic. There are a limited number of spells that can be cast in a day. Being able to cast spells in a ritual fashion that consume nothing but material components damages the game aspect. It obviates many obstacles in the game, especially with exploration. How do I deal with the sequelae of the lack? As the issues come up. So far its been fine.

Hey, I said I would go through how I do it. There you go.

Second rule change:

Leomund’s Tiny Hut creates a magical tent or yurt and not a fortified bunker. The entire point of the spell is lost in 5e, which is to mitigate, not eliminate, environmental consequences of travel and lighten the load of the party. A lighter load allows for more treasure to be carried back.

Looking back to AD&D, Tiny Hut now has the following qualities:

Shelters nine medium sized or smaller creatures (as before). One large sized creature can be accommodated instead of three medium sized creatures (new). Should the caster leave the shelter it collapses.

The outside can be transparent, camouflaged, or a single particular color of the caster’s choice. A light spell can be activated or extinguished at will insider the shelter as the caster desires.

The interior maintains a comfortable temperature, mild humidity, and dry (as before). In areas of extreme temperature, arctic, jungle, and hot desert climates, the interior climate will be uncomfortable but survivable. The interior will remain dry in any rain, but will collapse from being washed with two inches of flowing water. The spell must be cast on firm ground. (Rare situation- you can’t sleep in a stream, and if a waterway jumps its banks you have a problem. But heavy rain outside of a monsoon is not an issue. Swamps are problematic.)

Gale force winds (Beaufort 8) and heavy hail will collapse the shelter.

Vermin and tiny creatures are unable to enter.

Third rule change:

Each berry consumed from a goodberry spell is equivalent to a meal’s nutrition (as original). While ranger spells will typically be consumed in combat, a single casting of goodberry by a ranger or druid wholly obviates the need for food for ten people at the cost of a first level spell. No.

Okay, on to the ship!

When you look at journals of travel on the seas one thing stands out. It is incredibly dull. Sure pirates were a thing, but even when vessels were travelling along standard routes you could go a couple voyages without seeing anybody else. What can go wrong here is usually combative in nature. Pirates, sea monsters, mutiny, &c. 10% chance of pirates, unless there might be a rumor the PCs are transporting a treasure or something. No pirates. The other issues are weather. Knowing where the ship is and that it is mid to late summer, I check on some tables to see if there is any interesting weather. Nope. A couple showers, but nothing exciting. Food isn’t an issue, and as it is a short voyage (< 1 month) so I’m not bothering with spoilage. I have a 1% change of something weird happening, ghost ship, strange tides revealing the top of a ruined tower, &c. But, nothing there as well.

Yeah, sea travel can be dull unless you are going someplace dangerous, the pirates are looking for you, or you travel during a season of bad weather. Something might happen but often doesn't.

Here I narrate the travel in week sections. The ship itself is shelter and mobile food stores, no one wants to pick a fight on the ship, and nothing random turns up. On we go.

More to come, and things get a bit more dangerous.
 
Last edited:

Also because I don't play 5E, I am curious what people think 5E brings and doesn't bring to exploration and how it is different from earlier editions.
Goodberry, create food & water, etc still exist but the opportunity cost of preparing them is much lower since you can use any unused spell slot of equal or hgher level to cast them just before recovering said spell slot rather than needing to devote a spell slot & hoping it won't be needed. Tiny hut is upgraded from a tent to an improved version of force cage that the caster can allow allies to move in/out of but block enemies & enemy LoS/Spells in but not ally LoS out on top of being something that can be cast without consuming a spell slot. That's the start, things rocket downhill with these
I quote : "Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.". The outlander background is pretty common & can be taken by anyone at level 1, it gives athletics/survival proficiency and "You have an excellent memory for maps and geography, and you can always recall the general layout of terrain, settlements, and other features around you. In addition, you can find food and fresh water for yourself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth."
Yea... it's bad.

It's a cost (or rather risk or trade-off). Whether it's a high or low cost depends on the context.

Also, you appear to be assuming the frequency of random encounters here. It looks like you're thinking it's one random encounter check per day. That's not necessarily the case. So one day-long attempt at foraging while traveling can mean multiple random encounter checks or random encounters, potentially more than one of which has sneaky monsters.

In my current hexcrawl, for example, every hex you enter has a random encounter, guaranteed, in addition to any static encounter that might already be keyed to the given hex. So, in context, that's a minimum of 4 per day of travel or 8 if you're a ranger in favored terrain (since you can cover more hexes per day in this setup by ignoring difficult terrain). But that foraging is a day's worth of effort. That's a lot of chances to get surprised. Are all games set up that way? No. But it goes to show that your argument is based on assumptions that are not universally true. Your response also suggests to me a lack of actual play experience using these exploration rules.

Also, I've seen PCs get killed before acting when they were surprised. So let's not pretend it's not a real threat. Even if they don't die, it's a potential ding to their hit points and thus hit dice which can matter in the long run. That will matter more in some games than others, but it's not nothing.
Surprise only lasts the first round and only kicks in if actually attacked by surprise. If players are being subject to surprise attacks so often that the game looks more like deadspace or gauntlet you have a very odd dungeon crawl not exploration. Surprise in past editions caused your AC to be your flat footed ac making nearly every attack a guaranteed hit & was very dangerous as a result...all itdoes in 5e is "If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.". That's not especially dangerous in 5e given the extreme buffer provided by how phb197 works with spells & abilities like bonus action ranged healing word, 1hp heal LoH, & so on to reset the buffer for damage between zero and negative your max hp. Even with attacks on a downed pc being an automatic crit that buffer is so large & so easily reset that it's really only a risk at very low levels.
.
 

Remove ads

Top