D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Ovinomancer]

I can do you one better and point you to the source itself: https://giffyglyph.com/darkerdungeons/grimoire/4.0.0/en/trials.html

In fact for those looking for more options, there’s a ton of good stuff in Darker Dungeons.

Ooh, the math there is really rough on PCs. 20 successes before 5 failures? That's going to be merry hell, even with the option to remove a failure on a 10+. This is really a rehash of the skill challenges from 4e, and could have stood to have done some more research on how those evolved over 4e -- mainly in the math. I mean, say I have an average of +10 on all relevant checks made in this challenge. The odds I get 20 successes before 5 fails is very slim -- and the only good outcomes are 20 successes before 2 failures. That's nearly impossible. And this isn't even close to the top end of the scale in challenge or difficulty!

 

[Mort]

I agree with this, but as a player who literally went through something similar, simply having no idea what makes one path different from another instantly killed any engagement I had in the scenario. Because I very much believed the choices were actually different, but the DM was having us guess blind. And at that point, one choice is identical to the other, because I can't make a decision other than random chance. I might as well roll dice, flip coins, or throw a stick in the air and follow that. They all have the same end result from the player's perspective

One problem I've noticed in way too many GMs have a tendency to hoard/be extremely stingy with information. These (often but certainly not always new) GMs feel giving too much information is somehow making it too easy for the players. They don't seem to realize that by withholding information to the point of absurdity, they are essentially preventing players from making any real choices and thus the choices don't have meaning - the DM may as well be dictating.

So the solution is to telegraph properly and to provide enough information. In the diverging paths scenario, make sure there are enough distinct differences to ensure players are not "choosing blind" but picking paths based on conveyed information etc.

 

[Hussar]

It is a key part of the game and the genre... but it is treated in the same way it is in heroic adventure fiction... as an inconvenience, a drain on resources, for mixing up pacing, as a minor challenge and sometimes only to showcase the capabilities of adventurers.

There is your FULL quote. Where in there is exploration an actual challenge? At most, it's a drain on resources. That's it.

So, in your words, you said that exploration is not terribly challenging. So, what am I misunderstanding here?

 

[Hussar]

But really, either way, its fine so long as the DM isn't intentionally attempting to make a situation worse for the player.

And that's where the whole issue with the wandering child comes in. And, the flooded bridge... and the ...

Every example that gets brought up is the DM intentionally attempting to make the situation worse for the player. But, apparently, that's okay, because that's just part of play.

 

[Mordhau]

Hmmm...

I'm always bemused that people treat WotC thought bubbles seriously. They state some guff about 3 pillars and we take it seriously?

So what is exploration then in the three pillars sense?

The DMG has a section on "Exploration" on page 242 which says "this section provides guidance for running exploration especially travel, tracking and visibility" which is unhelpful. What else is exploration then? Why is travel exploration? The difference between travel to get from A to B and travel for the sake of exploring an area is one of the areas that I see frequently cause confusion. This becomes a lot clearer if for example you compare the journey rules for Adventures in Middle Earth with more traditional Hex Crawl rules; they're two very different resoultion systems for two very different purposes.

In this UA article, we get:

You gain XP for recovering lost magic items, claiming hidden treasure caches, and exploring abandoned sites or places of power. Your character can gain experience points by retrieving a mighty weapon from a dragon’s hoard, stealing a diamond from an evil baron, or uncovering the location of a lost temple of evil.

Which is not much help either. Exploration XP therefore is XP you get for doing things in D&D.

It also completely confuses means and ends (what if I steal the diamond from the baron by having my bard use his expertise in persuasion to carry out an elaborate con? Retrieving a mighty weapon from a dragon's hoard might presumably involve engaging the dragon in combat.)

What about the PHB?

Exploration includes both the adventurers’ movement through the w orld and their interaction with objects and situations that require their attention. Exploration is the give-and-take of the players describing what they want their characters to do, and the Dungeon Master telling the players what happens as a result. On a large scale, that might involve the characters spending a day crossing a rolling plain or an hour making their way through caverns underground. On the sm allest scale, it could mean one character pulling a lever in a dungeon room to see what happens.

It's the players deciding the actions and DM deciding what happens. Wait. Isn't that called playing the damn game?

So probably the best definition of "Exploration" as a pillar is that it's some kind of catch-all that involves doing stereotypically D&D stuff that isn't covered by the pillars of combat and social interaction.

Which brings us back to the main problem. For exploration to be a pillar at all the whole concept needs to be clearly defined and make sense. It doesn't.

 

[Lanefan]

So, set aside the specific wording from WotC for a moment.

Answer the question for yourself. As you play it - Is the game three pillars, and ONLY those pillars?

In sum total, yes; at least going by the "official" write-ups.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this assessment or that it covers everything well - note upthread my suggestion that there needs to be a fourth Downtime pillar - but it is what it is and as such it's what we have to work with.

Or is the game supported by three pillars, with some extra stuff around it too? Or...

Take for a moment the idea that "three pillars" is a model for the game. A way to look at it, its design, and structure. The model doesn't have to be 100% accurate and precise! You can decide for yourself where that model fails, and where it is useful.

I would take the "three pillars" as being a basic point of where players wind up spending most of their attention - combat, social interactions, and exploration. That seems fair enough. But it does not seem fair to say, "Every individual action done at the table is 100% under the bailiwick of one of these pillars."

Not quite: I see it that every action at the table is 100% under the sum-total bailiwick of some combination of these pillars, most frequently just one, sometimes two, and rarely-but-not-never all three at once.

 

[Lanefan]

You drove, because that's not anywhere near straight, or what I said.

Here is what you said, repeated verbatim through the wonders of cut-and-paste:

Finding a new vista isn't the exploration pillar. These may be part and parcel of exploration, but aren't part of the exploration pillar of the game.

Finding a new vista ... may be part and parcel of exploration, but [isn't] part of the exploration pillar.

You literally, and in not many more words, are saying here that exploration isn't part of exploration!

No. If my house has 3 pillars, is that the only extent of my house?

In this case the direct analogy would be to say your house (the game) is comprised of three pillars, the sum total of which is your house (the game). Obviously, to make it a functional house those pillars would be both a) interconnected and b) hollow on the inside, with all the living space being inthe hollow areas.

Description is part and parcel of every pillar of the game -- it's not specific to any.

Sometimes it's not specific to any one pillar; but it quite often can be and when it is, it's most often tied to the info-gathering and learning aspects of exploration.

The DM describing a new area for the first time: exploration all the way. The PCs/players are learning something new about the world.
The DM describing the same area for the third time to the same PCs: not exploration. They're not learning anything new.

 

[Mordhau]

Changes I think I would make:

Change Goodberry dramatically: it shouldn't provide sustenance for a day. You could possibly have it do something like temporarily remove the effects of exhaustion, which would have interesting implications for wilderness travel and survival (but you'd need to put some hard limits on that). Still that would actually make PCs willing to push on and be willing to risk exhaustion. (Maybe there's a risk of addiction to Goodberries or something like that).

Wind down rituals somewhat. I would make them so they require a spell slot of the same level so they still drain resources. Also neuter some. Comprehend Languages should not work on written language (Or it does it should require something like a level 4 slot). Having to find someone who can translate ancient texts is a plot and adventure driver.

Remove the ability of Lay on Hands to remove cure disease until level 9 or something like that (I mean seriously WTF? If you don't want diseases in your games then just don't use diseases in your game.)

Put some limits on cantrips - at least the non combat ones.
"You all clamber out of the sewer, you are covered with blood and filth and smell awful"
"I cast prestigiation"
"It only cleans a cubic foot"
"That's ok. I cast it a dozen times".
A lot of them could stand to be first level rituals (and perhaps beefed up a bit in the process to account for the fact they drain resources).

Leomunds Tiny Hut needs to be either much higher level.

Replace Natural Explorer with Deft Explorer (although really I think the latter is a little underwhelming now).

 

[Lanefan]

What sticks out in my mind was an interaction with one of the new players as we were moving forward through the dungeon.

Player: I'm in the back watching for anything coming up behind us.
Me: Ok, no problem, the party begins...
Player: No, hang on. I'm looking EVERYWHERE behind us. I'm looking up, I'm looking left and right, I'm looking down...
Me: Yes, yes. I got it, you're on guard behind us.
Player: I want to be absolutely clear what I'm doing. I'm actually turning my body around every few steps to make sure that I'm looking behind us.

This went on for long enough that it stuck out in my mind. Here is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Players who have been trained by DM's who think that challenge=Mother May I and Calvinball. I actually stopped the game at that point and explained that they really, really didn't have to do any of this. I will never intentionally screw over the party like that. ((Granted, in the next freaking scene I forgot about the damn wizard's flying familiar keeping watch above when the meanlocks dive bombed the party - Damn)) But, mistakes aside, I don't ever do this kind of stuff. You will never, ever hear me ask, "So, how are you checking for traps?" "How are you searching the room?" That kind of stuff is just something I will not do anymore.

So, when people talk about that being a big part of the exploration pillar, it just totally turns me off from the whole idea.

Sorry, but IMO the player here is doing it absolutely right. Kudos to that player!

And if you're not asking for specifics or details on how the PCs are doing the broad-brush actions they're declaring you're leaving yourself wide open to the age-old argument of "But I never said I was doing [whatever]". Unless, of course, you're never putting any unforeseen challenges in their path and-or are telegraphing everything, which IMO is way more hand-holding than I'd ever want to play under.

 

[Lanefan]

If we decide the main conflicts are:

Man vs. Self
Man vs. Man
Man vs. Nature
Man vs. Powers (Society, Technology, Culture / Tradition, as well as Magic in our case)
Man vs. Fate

Well, at least the women get off scot free.