Why favored classes?

[pawsplay]

RSoP was a great example because it was so obviously broken, but I'd hate to exclude its cousins: Weapon Master (S&F), Mage of the Arcane Order (CA), Frenzied Beserker (CW), Archmage (DMG) and Guild Thief (PGtF).

Actually, RSoP is not usually broken. Strong, but not broken. Many people misread the empowered heal ability to make them super healers, when in fact it only works on their domain spells. They get some nice bonuses, for which a smaller Hit Die is a rather small price, but there is a price. The advantages of the class cannot be applied willy-nilly, either; the class requires a specific Domain, and to get the most out of it, your second domain is chosen, too. Further, it's deity specific, which means there are limitations on what other domains could be combined with those specific advantages. Free martial weapon proficiency seems kind of gratuitous, but it is not likely to make a difference to a straight up cleric at that level, and means nothing to a multiclassed fighter or paladin; this is most abusable with characters who start at higher levels.

Ultimately, RSoP amounts to trading 1 hp/level for a handful of feat-equivalent abilities, which is a favorable but not outrageous trade.

Archmage, though, is like, "Spend one feat you probably don't need to become a wizard that gets a top tier feat every level."

 

[Tilenas]

Perhaps we have different notions of what was originally intended, but if the favored class mechanic was meant to encourage racial archetypes then why not keep it the way it was set forth in Beta? That at least encouraged players to choose their race's preferred class and to stick with it rather than multi-classing.

I agree with you on the likely intent (supporting racial archetypes), and I was comparing 3.5 with Pathfinder Beta, which I thought was the same as the final print. Did they change the way favoured classes work on the way?

 

[Voadam]

Oddly enough, the 3.5 rules only yielded any benefit for those who broke racial archetypes: Level 12 dwarven fighter? just as good as any. Level 5 dwarven fighter + Level 5 cleric + Level 2 cleric PrC? Now were talking!
With a favoured class benefit only kicking in when multiclassing, players were encouraged to diversify. Pathfinder's solution does so much more to implement the favoured class notion in the way it was (probably) intended.



Not even "core only" could hope to achieve that. *Glares at the Archmage*

Nah, 5/5 +2 PRC works fine no mater the race and class combo in 3.5.

Multiclassing was only a penalty if you didn't stay within two levels in core non favored classes.

Favored class allowed you to dip in your favored class without penalty, either dip out of it for a level or two, or dip in for a level or two. So the dwarven wizard who dips into fighter to get a few hp and weapon focus rays is not dinged as a halfling wizard would be (Its easy for a dwarf to pick up fighter skills but not so easy for others). On the flip side the dwarven fighter who takes a level or two in other classes to learn something new is not dinged while the dwarven rogue is (Its easy for a dwarf to stay sharp on his fighter skills when playing around with other hobbies, while other skills are harder to keep focused and sharp on).

 

[Voadam]

I agree with you on the likely intent (supporting racial archetypes), and I was comparing 3.5 with Pathfinder Beta, which I thought was the same as the final print. Did they change the way favoured classes work on the way?

Pathfinder SRD Classes check out multiclassing most of the way down on the page.

Everyone now gets to pick their favored class in Pathfinder. Half-Elves get a racial bonus of a second favored class. It otherwise works the same as in Beta. If you level in favored class you get +1 hp or skill point.

 

[Psion]

The way I see it, the favored class rule has the effect of:
1) the already mentioned bonus for staying single classed (and giving you more trade off for PrCs).
2) it also helps counter-balance the long list of class skills that multi class characters will get under the new rules.

It seems to me the "racial favored class" mechanic is now in the racial stat bonuses. Human get one anywhere, so have no "racial favored class". Elves make good rogues and wizards (and deft fighters), halflings make good rogues and sorcerers, etc.

 

[radferth]

My group voted unanimously (with some abstentions) to go back to racial-archetype-based favored classes, but we like the favored class mechanic in general.

 

[grrtigger]

Perhaps we have different notions of what was originally intended, but if the favored class mechanic was meant to encourage racial archetypes then why not keep it the way it was set forth in Beta? That at least encouraged players to choose their race's preferred class and to stick with it rather than multi-classing.

During the playtest there were many vocal critics of both a favored class mechanical benefit and enforcing racial archetypes by defining favored class choices for each race. The 'Adventurers' section of the racial descriptions for Dwarves, Elves, and Gnomes includes suggestions for typical class choices, others don't.

Although I lean toward including specific favored class choices for most races, one of my players was happy she could switch back to Elf for her sorcerer without missing out on the +1 HP or skill rank, so ultimately I guess it's more fun for a wider range of players if you get to pick your own. And the GM can always house-rule specific choices back in for individual campaigns, etc.

 

[Voadam]

Is it merely pointless power creep or an attempt to encourage a player to retain a single class throughout his entire career? If the latter, why is keeping a single base class considered preferable to multiclassing or advancing in a prestige class?

I think it is an attempt to benefit players who stick to a single base class.

1 hp or skill point a level is a generally modest boost. The Toughness feat grants 1/hp a level now as well.

I think Psion's point about multiclassing is insightful as multiclassing generally gives you a broader range of class skills, each with a +3 competence bonus in them.

I think they have the view that there are generally better than core class prestige classes out there and they want the base core classes to be a competitive attractive option.

It does have an odd incentive to encourage dipping when multiclassing instead of going fifty fifty for say a rogue/fighter character.

Some of the class mechanics being based on class level instead of character level have the same or greater impact and incentive IMO.

 

[Tilenas]

Nah, 5/5 +2 PRC works fine no mater the race and class combo in 3.5.

Well, I wasn't clear on the way 5/5+2 is achieved: As a dwarf, you can go from Ftr5 to Ftr5/Crl5 without penalty, whereas an elf couldn't. That's what I mean by saying that the favoured class comes only into play when multiclassing.

I guess it's always a matter of perception. If many of you say that favoured classes allow dipping in and out, implying that most members of a certain race have a few levels in a certain class, you're of course right. However, I am always skeptical when it comes to class-dipping (for reasons that will lead us off the right track here).
Bottom line: It's not the dwarven fighter who's better at fighting, it's the dwarven cleric (compared to other clerics). The dwarven fighter is just better at healing or other stuff ;-)

Pathfinder SRD Classes check out multiclassing most of the way down on the page.

Everyone now gets to pick their favored class in Pathfinder. Half-Elves get a racial bonus of a second favored class. It otherwise works the same as in Beta. If you level in favored class you get +1 hp or skill point.

Okay, this "choose your favoured class" thing clearly blows. Kudos for them for trying to keep everyone single-classed, but they clearly missed the aspect of racial archetypes (which has been part of the game pretty much forever and was a very good thing, IMO).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Okay, this "choose your favoured class" thing clearly blows. Kudos for them for trying to keep everyone single-classed, but they clearly missed the aspect of racial archetypes (which has been part of the game pretty much forever and was a very good thing, IMO).

forever

If by "forever" you mean "Since 3.0" maybe?

And if by "clearly" you means "Not clearly at all, but in my humble opinion."