D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Shasarak]

The novels were accepted canon by everyone involved until the movie studios decided to say otherwise……
Hahahahahahahah. Yea right. Sorry even when I read Splinter of the Mind’s Eye when it first hit shelves I knew it wasn’t canon. The studios marketing people may have fed you that line but they never bought themselves. Shoot even Star Trek could not remember Checkov never met Khan. Wait a minute I do remember a fan page where Pavel Farted in Khan’s space suit or was that Klingons farting in the starboard turbo lift, I forget which.
Again Chaosmancer give me the line quote in the following 5E books which says “ed greenwood mumbles, blogs, articles, bad novels, etc are CANON. AND ALL DMS MUST FOLLOW CANON OR BE DESTROYED!”
5E Dungeon Master Guide
5E Players Handbook
5E Monster Manual
5E Storm King’s Thunder
5E Out of the Abyss
5E The Rise of Tiamat
5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen
5E Princes of the Apocalyse
5E Sword Coast Adventure Guide
5E Volo’s Guide to Monsters
The post 845 mentions http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon
IS A FANDOM CREATE PAGE. I read “Spellfire” when it first came out. It is the first time I agreed with my wife that a lot of spin off novels are JUNK FICTION. It read like someone wrote a bad novel about his Monty hall pc.
The first time a fan boy would scream at me “this is canon” is when I collect $40 from player Chaomancer and disappear for 15 minutes. Then pour everyone a shot of Jim Beam. Then say, “Don’t worry Eliminister and Drizzit handled it why yall were talking a long rest. Any one up for Candyland?”

That would probably explain why I keep being Destroyed (Twice on Tuesday!).

Put me down in the category of people that loved the Spellfire Montyhaul book, at least it was realistic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The novels were accepted canon by everyone involved until the movie studios decided to say otherwise……
Hahahahahahahah. Yea right. Sorry even when I read Splinter of the Mind’s Eye when it first hit shelves I knew it wasn’t canon. The studios marketing people may have fed you that line but they never bought themselves. Shoot even Star Trek could not remember Checkov never met Khan. Wait a minute I do remember a fan page where Pavel Farted in Khan’s space suit or was that Klingons farting in the starboard turbo lift, I forget which.
Again Chaosmancer give me the line quote in the following 5E books which says “ed greenwood mumbles, blogs, articles, bad novels, etc are CANON. AND ALL DMS MUST FOLLOW CANON OR BE DESTROYED!”
5E Dungeon Master Guide
5E Players Handbook
5E Monster Manual
5E Storm King’s Thunder
5E Out of the Abyss
5E The Rise of Tiamat
5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen
5E Princes of the Apocalyse
5E Sword Coast Adventure Guide
5E Volo’s Guide to Monsters
The post 845 mentions http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon
IS A FANDOM CREATE PAGE. I read “Spellfire” when it first came out. It is the first time I agreed with my wife that a lot of spin off novels are JUNK FICTION. It read like someone wrote a bad novel about his Monty hall pc.
The first time a fan boy would scream at me “this is canon” is when I collect $40 from player Chaomancer and disappear for 15 minutes. Then pour everyone a shot of Jim Beam. Then say, “Don’t worry Eliminister and Drizzit handled it why yall were talking a long rest. Any one up for Candyland?”

Why would the 5e PHB, DMG, or MM care about FR canon? Should they not be neutral? I also do not own SKT, Hoard, Rise of Tiamat, Volos, PoA. I guess I could scour the SCAG pdf I have or the Out of the Abyss to see if they decided to talk about canon in an adventure path.

But frankly, your demands will not be met. I did a google search, the FR Wiki and some place called Candlekeep had the same information, followed by a bunch of sites that had nothing to do with DnD or Ed Greenwood because Google hates me.

And those Fandom created places say the same thing. Ed Greenwood has a contract, in his contract it says what he says is canon.

If you need to see the contract itself to believe that it exists and people aren't lying to you, feel free to bother Ed Greenwood or WoTC yourself. I'm not going to bother tracking down a 30-40 year old contract to win an internet argument. The FR wiki seems to be a well maintained and well researched site. I see no reason to assume they have made up a contract that does not exist.


Also, if you think this contract is null because we are in 5e... well, Forgotten Realms is the subject of the contract, not the edition of Dungeons and Dragons, and Forgotten Realms still exists so the contract is still in effect.

If you believe the contract actually exists and is not an elaborate conspiracy to fool you into thinking something is canon when it is not... which is just kind of dumb, isn't it?

 

[JeffB]

 

[Demetrios1453]

Wasn't there a grand history of the realms book released? Pretty sure that would be the canon timeline for the official realms. With each independent game running it differently as their characters interact with the world, each home game version of the realms is going to be different.

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Yes there was, but it was printed in the waning days of 3e, so it's about a century out of date for the setting timeline now...

As for any characters (and their players) who wonder what high-level NPCs are doing when problems are occurring, the simple answer is this - what does it matter? When the stuff is going down and a demon army is levelling a city, real heroes don't stand there and do nothing, wondering aloud where Elminster is - they do what needs to be done to fix the issue! And if for some reason they do track the Sage of Shadowdale down and try to pin him down on the matter, he might tell them, or, conversely, he would be well within his right to tell them how his business is none of their business. For all the curiosity about the affairs of high level NPCs many are showing here, I can only imagine that their characters go from NPC to NPC running audits on them about their actions (or lack thereof) when major events occur...

(As I said previously, the "Where's Elminster" question has never come up in my games. My players have really never felt the need to ask for it, no matter how dire the situation. They certainly don't expect someone else to magically appear and save the day for them!)

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[Seramus]

For other tables, it may be an issue, but it's one the DM can avoid. If you're running Tyranny of Dragons, and your players say "hey, where's Elminster in all this?", really all you have to reply with is "That's a good question....where is he?" and it's implied that something must have happened to him. Then you can continue on without even worrying about it.

Amusing side note: In the Neverwinter MMO, Elminster is right in the middle of the Tyranny of Dragons campaign, handing out quests to everyone. And if you fail the battle to stop Tiamat, he Deus Ex Machina rewinds time so you can try again until you get it right.

 

[cbwjm]

Yes there was, but it was printed in the waning days of 3e, so it's about a century out of date for the setting timeline now...

As for any characters (and their players) who wonder what high-level NPCs are doing when problems are occurring, the simple answer is this - what does it matter? When the stuff is going down and a demon army is levelling a city, real heroes don't stand there and do nothing, wondering aloud where Elminster is - they do what needs to be done to fix the issue! And if for some reason they do track the Sage of Shadowdale down and try to pin him down on the matter, he might tell them, or, conversely, he would be well within his right to tell them how his business is none of their business. For all the curiosity about the affairs of high level NPCs many are showing here, I can only imagine that their characters go from NPC to NPC running audits on them about their actions (or lack thereof) when major events occur...

(As I said previously, the "Where's Elminster" question has never come up in my games. My players have really never felt the need to ask for it, no matter how dire the situation. They certainly don't expect someone else to magically appear and save the day for them!)

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

I know it is doesn't cover 5e (I wasn't sure if it moved much into 4e) but what it does do is provide an official history of the realms showing what did and didn't happen during the time frame it covers. It should help people determine whether or not an adventure from 2e or novel from 3e was considered canon. Mind you, I don't know how much detail it goes into so I wouldn't be surprised if some things are still up in the air. Personally, I just assumed that everything that written in a novel was canon as were adventures great and small.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I've never read any of the Elminster books, so I don't know how easily he saves the world. I'm only passing familiar with them by hearing secondhand accounts online. But each setting has these uber-powerful characters....I think the perception is that Elminster is so front and center to the Realms as opposed to other settings and characters.

It isn't just perception though. I don't think Dark Sun has many high-end good-aligned NPCs around.
As discussed earlier, the Eberron NPCs who might want to get involved, can't go out and do stuff, but need to hire the PCs to do so. (Or the PCs are desperately trying to make sure that they won't get involved.)

Now Greyhawk does have some high-power hero types to whom your analogy does apply. They, however seem to be more isolationist/retired, whereas the novels show that Elminster et al do tend to get involved. Even leaving Elminster out of it though, the previous level of documentation for the FR was better than probably any other setting - and it documents there being a lot of other NPCs around the world that will be more powerful than many PC parties.

I think they have put a lot of thought into it. I think that, in their 5th Edition products, they've decided to downplay powerful NPCs in favor of the PCs being the heroes of the stories.

I would say that perhaps one of the big issues might be the fact that each edition of the game has had its own approach to the Realms. So as the setting that's been present for each edition, it's been the most affected by this.

I think that this is very likely, and probably a good thing as well.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Amusing side note: In the Neverwinter MMO, Elminster is right in the middle of the Tyranny of Dragons campaign, handing out quests to everyone. And if you fail the battle to stop Tiamat, he Deus Ex Machina rewinds time so you can try again until you get it right.

Ha funny how that kind of works for a video game, but in a tabletop RPG or just straight fiction of some sort, it would be unbearable.

It isn't just perception though. I don't think Dark Sun has many high-end good-aligned NPCs around.
As discussed earlier, the Eberron NPCs who might want to get involved, can't go out and do stuff, but need to hire the PCs to do so. (Or the PCs are desperately trying to make sure that they won't get involved.)

Now Greyhawk does have some high-power hero types to whom your analogy does apply. They, however seem to be more isolationist/retired, whereas the novels show that Elminster et al do tend to get involved. Even leaving Elminster out of it though, the previous level of documentation for the FR was better than probably any other setting - and it documents there being a lot of other NPCs around the world that will be more powerful than many PC parties.

Dark Sun is almost the worst, actually. The novels are about a group of characters who essentially defeat the main villains of the setting and unravel most of its mysteries. Rikus, Sadira, Agis, Neeva, and Tythian and their allies defeal several of the sorcerer kings and eventually go on to defeat the Dragon.

I just think it's a case of those novels not being as well known as the FR ones.

I think that this is very likely, and probably a good thing as well.

Yeah, we'll see. As I said earlier, I get that it's a criticism of the setting, so it'd be smart of then to addrrss it.

We'll have to see if the movies impact that at all.

 

[Maxperson]

Sorry, wrong wording. I'm just trying to get a picture of when you jumped into gaming. Just wondering if there is a generational thing going on here.

1983

 

[Maxperson]

The Deck of Many Things is the proof of theory. I don’t own a vast collection of DnD material, I have to use what I have. It is a legendary item, it can grant XP. If a magic item can do it, a god can do it and demon lords and the like can do it under the correct circumstances.

If a gods power, which is locked within whatever temple this is by my reading, can grant temporary levels, then it seems there must be a way to grant permanent levels. And even if they can’t be permanent giving someone temporary power for 100 years accomplishes the same effect for most of the playable races.

If you want to keep insisting I am not providing proof that my theory is plausible, then fine, continue to deny that the gods cannot do anything more than give templates which grant spells and physical and mental changes, and that can never translate into actual level gain because that requires XP and the gods are never shown directly granting XP in a setting book.

It's a good theory, but it's just not backed up by the rules. The Deck of Many Things and the Librams that give levels for that matter, are written exceptions to the rule. Gods have been written and they have not been given the ability to grant exp. Nor can demon lords. Now, it would certainly make sense for them to be able to do it, but you have to engage a house rule since you are altering the rules involving mechanics.

Star Wars is a very interesting example to bring up. Do you happen to remember when Force Awakens was announced? When they said the entire Expanded Universe was being declared non-canon and people flipped out?

If the novels were never considered canon, people would not have lost their minds. The novels were accepted canon by everyone involved until the movie studios decided to say otherwise.

That isn't necessarily true. People assume a great deal and lose their minds over piddly crap. To think that lots of fans assumed what was cannon, were wrong, and then lost their minds is not a large step to take.

It doesn’t take a bad DM. There are pitfalls everywhere.

Any “Save the Realms” plot that takes place brings up the question of why one of the premier guardians of the Realms (and it is a list longer than just Elminster and Driz’zt) is not getting involved. I mean, isn’t the whole plot of Out of the Abyss and Rise of Tiamat involve threats so great that multiple nations and organizations join forces? You don’t have to be paying very close attention to the world to notice that a threat has loomed that got the USA, Russia, China, India, ISIS and the Illuminati to work together.

But lets go smaller. Let’s say the plot is a necromancer attacking and threatening a city. Silverymoon… wait, isn’t the leader of Silverymoon an incredibly powerful wizard… uh, Waterdeep then…. No also has an incredibly powerful immortal wizard in charge…. Neverwinter? Isn’t there a full on order of Paladins based there…. Okay, small town, Secomber. *Wikis secomber* As long as the Famed sage and alchemist Amelior Amanitis is a non-combatant sage instead of a powerful wizard

And if you decide to go forward with one of these cities being in danger anyways, you need to carefully balance the level of threat. It can’t be a threat big enough to get the leader of the city involved, but it does need to be a big enough to threat to get your party involved and feel like they saved the city.

It can be done, but man is it aggravating to have to constantly balance these incredibly powerful people who could be doing something about the threats to the people, but somehow don’t, but are also not seen as lazy incompetents who refuse to protect their people, so that your players can be the stars of the show, but also probably not end up as the leader of any of the major cities, because the people there are powerful and well-loved heroes…

That's just not true. You can of course make it hard on yourself as a DM and play it like that, but you have to ignore the options available to you.

The bigwigs watch and plot against each other, so they could easily miss a world spanning even, or just plain be unable to leave their own. When you get down to the city level it's even easier. Lady Alustiel is making a state visit to Bruenor. The Lords of Waterdeep are busy working out a trade deal with another major city. The Simbul is planewalking like the lore says she enjoys. High level NPC is assassinated, opening up the ability to rule the city to the PCs.

You really are making things about 1000x harder than it needs to be.

Depends on what we mean by competing. If a level 1 party faces Raistlin directly no, if they face his minions then yes.

If he's using minions until the party is high enough level to handle him, he's not overshadowing now, is he? The same goes for Elminster and the Realms NPCs.

So because your party includes a level 20 wizard, barbarian, mystic and paladin it can’t include a level 20 rogue?

Go read the myriad of "A non-caster is just a caddy to the caster" threads and then come back to me. T hey were as common and hotly contested as alignment threads.

Also, because I’m a bit of a nerd, the marvel movies have a few advantages. They haven’t put forth the entire roster yet, and by the time of Winter Soldier we really only had the Avengers team. Thor is off world, Hulk is unreliable and too dangerous, and Black Widow was a big part of that plot. That means the only person who could have gotten involved and is a significant game changer is Stark (War Machine is owned by the Army, and therefore compromised by the whole HYDRA thing anyways). Follow that with Cap delving into the secret spy network within the secret spy network, and we’ve got some plausible deniability that actually works.

The same applies to the PCs and the Realms. The DM is the one who wrecks that or not.

Are you asking that someone track down the contract written a few decades ago and signed by Ed Greenwood and TSR?

No. It's exactly what I wrote. I'm curious to see it. If I wanted someone to go get it for me, I'd have said so.