D&D 5E Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

I understand that this was a throwaway point for you, but it is kind of important since so many of the conversations (including this one) devolve into issues of "balance;" balance can be measured in different ways. "


And it is. Some people view it on a more macro level (like AD&D magic users, where "balance" was considered in general. I.e. the weak at low levels but made up for it a high levels). Other people take a more drilled down approach, and look at balance on an individual class level. And others drill down even further and look at it on a per encounter basis.

Since we all look at it differently, we'll have different outcomes as to what we consider balanced.
 

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No, not at all. When I say better, I mean in the nature of about 10-20% better, on average. I'm sure you don't think the disparity between 10 DPR and 12 DPR is so great that people who want to play simple characters won't be competitive.

And yes, I do think players who embrace mechanical challenges should receive a small bonus if they leverage those effectively. That's been the wizard shtick since Basic, after all. The balance point is that if the more mechanical complex character is played poorly, their DPR and effectiveness will suffer accordingly, more so than the mechanically simple character. It should look something like:

Battlemaster (played well) - 12 DPR
Champion (baseline, as they have no real DPR decision points) - 10 DPR
Battlemaster (played poorly) - 8 DPR.

Note, also, by "played well" I mean tactical decisions at the table, not build decisions. The problem with 3e was how much of your character's effectiveness was tied to decisions you didn't make in play, but at the time of character build.

There's also the issue of psychology. Players who gravitate towards mechanical complexity are, most of the time, also going to be players who are more aware of mechanical effectiveness, and are more than likely to gravitate towards playing more "effective" classes. I would be bummed if all the strongest options for characters were characters with purely passive abilities that required little to no decision making, because my desires for both complexity and effectiveness would be hindered.

Likewise, player types who gravitate towards the simpler options are also the type who care the least about measuring effectiveness. How many people on this forum make statements like "I don't care about my DPR, I just want to play the character I envision?" If they don't care about DPR, than why would more complex characters being slightly stronger than simpler ones matter to those players even one iota? They're going to choose the option that fits their concept and is easier to play.

I would rather see:
Battlemaster (played well) - 10 DPR + status effects & unique moves
Champion (baseline, as they have no real DPR decision points) - 12 DPR
Battlemaster (played poorly) - 8 DPR + status effects & unique moves

Now you are gaining unique, controllable, effects and attack opportunities that the champion doesn't have in exchange for complexity.
 

I would rather see:
Battlemaster (played well) - 10 DPR + status effects & unique moves
Champion (baseline, as they have no real DPR decision points) - 12 DPR
Battlemaster (played poorly) - 8 DPR + status effects & unique moves

Now you are gaining unique, controllable, effects and attack opportunities that the champion doesn't have in exchange for complexity.


Exactly. It should all be about a trade off of what you want. It reminds me of those threads we have about how the monk sucks because they are always behind on DPR. Well yeah, because monks have a lot more than can do outside of DPR. That's why I'm usually pretty dubious about threads that compare DPR as some sort of comparison metric as to which class is better than another. there are a lot more things that happen in a game where DPR isn't a factor to succeeding or not.
 

What I wouldn't mind seeing is the Champion getting enhanced options for one of their fighting styles so that they can mix them a bit. For example, Dueling is no longer restricted to no weapon in your off hand but only applies to your primary hand. Heavy weapon allows you to re-roll 1's on any melee weapons. Defense increases to +2. Protection you don't have to wield a shield. Archery and TWF get something or other :p

This would allow the Champion to be a bit stronger overall while keeping with it's theme of overall ability and minimal fiddly bits.
 

I would rather see:
Battlemaster (played well) - 10 DPR + status effects & unique moves
Champion (baseline, as they have no real DPR decision points) - 12 DPR
Battlemaster (played poorly) - 8 DPR + status effects & unique moves

Now you are gaining unique, controllable, effects and attack opportunities that the champion doesn't have in exchange for complexity.
I'm ok with that assuming the control options are fairly reliable and strong.
 

I know it's probably a just me thing, but I really wish people would stop making statements like this. A champion is not useless. I don't think hyperbole like that helps a discussion.

Yeah they are not out right bad at least, outclassed by the BM IMHO and the other warrior classes until level 11 where it is a bit more debatable.
 



Yeah they are not out right bad at least, outclassed by the BM IMHO and the other warrior classes until level 11 where it is a bit more debatable.

See, and it's probably your playstyle that gives you that impression. I've seen just as many other people (including one player at my table) who thinks champions are the best. And he likes to consider himself an optimizer. I'll be the first to admit that we stretch the encounters before short rest more than what's in the book, because as I DM, I play the monsters as reactionary and would behave as they should be expected to. That means if the party has starting fighting in the dungeon and the monsters are alerted, they're gonna react to that. Getting a short or long rest might not be possible because they will be interrupted by the monsters searching for them.

That means there is no best, or worst, or anyone outclassing anyone else. It all comes down to personal playstyle preferences.
 


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