D&D 5E Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

[cbwjm]

Personally, I think too many people discount remarkable athlete, although most complaints seem like they just dont like the name. To me, remarkable athlete seems like a good all round ability.

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[bid]

That you don't have a reason to pick a champion over a battle master or eldritch knight does not mean that no one does. I, as an example, have the reason of "I want to track as few resources as possible."

Thank you, that is a good reason.

Simlarly, that you don't have a use for a feature does not mean no one does. I, example again, use Improved Critical to score 3-4 more (putting my average at about 8) critical hits per session (achieved by making a large number of attack rolls, and capitalizing on any opportunity to attack with advantage).

The chaos of crits is fun, another reason. Not that you do more damage, I've checked.


Ok, so it has its use. As long as it brings more fun.

 

[SkidAce]

I like Champions, its the best (albeit complicated) hero system out there.

 

[Satyrn]

Personally, I think too many people discount remarkable athlete, although most complaints seem like they just dont like the name. To me, remarkable athlete seems like a good all round ability.

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I feel this must have been partly directed at me since I said something about wondering how Remarkable Athlete elevated a Champion out of uselessness. I just want to say I wasn't discounting the ability. It's neat, and fun and appealing. I just don't think it's so great and fantastic that it would turn the Champion from useless to useful.

I also don't think the Camphion is useless, by the way

 

[cbwjm]

I feel this must have been partly directed at me since I said something about wondering how Remarkable Athlete elevated a Champion out of uselessness. I just want to say I wasn't discounting the ability. It's neat, and fun and appealing. I just don't think it's so great and fantastic that it would turn the Champion from useless to useful.

I also don't think the Camphion is useless, by the way

Nah, it wasn't directed at you, I was thinking of conversations in previous threads where people were trashing it's usefulness.

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[Ashkelon]

Remarkable athlete is anything but remarkable.

For example, the guidance cantrip blows remarkable athlete out of the water.
The guidance cantrip can be used for initiative just like remarkable athlete (just precast it before any combat).
The guidance cantrip stacks with skills you are already proficient in to push you to even greater heights.
The guidance cantrip applies to all 6 abilities instead of just the 3 physical ones.
The guidance cantrip can be cast on other party members to boost their ability checks.

The action cost of guidance is a drag, but realistically how often are you making a skill chexknwhere you don't have the ability to take 6 extra seconds of preparation to cast guidance.

 

[cbwjm]

People like you suck the fun out of dungeons and dragons.

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[Lucas Blackstone]

Remarkable athlete is anything but remarkable.

For example, the guidance cantrip blows remarkable athlete out of the water.
The guidance cantrip can be used for initiative just like remarkable athlete (just precast it before any combat).
The guidance cantrip stacks with skills you are already proficient in to push you to even greater heights.
The guidance cantrip applies to all 6 abilities instead of just the 3 physical ones.
The guidance cantrip can be cast on other party members to boost their ability checks.

The action cost of guidance is a drag, but realistically how often are you making a skill chexknwhere you don't have the ability to take 6 extra seconds of preparation to cast guidance.

Don't forget Guidance is a concentration spell. So while it has many uses, it ties up the concentration slot that could be used for many powerful spells.

 

[pemerton]

I certainly hope that the Champion is a weaker DPS option than a battle master if the battle master is played well. As a powergamer, the last thing I want to see is the tactically simpler option be the stronger DPS option. There should be at least a loose positive correlation between mechanical complexity and damage output assuming close to optimal play.

I do think players who embrace mechanical challenges should receive a small bonus if they leverage those effectively.

<snip>

There's also the issue of psychology. Players who gravitate towards mechanical complexity are, most of the time, also going to be players who are more aware of mechanical effectiveness, and are more than likely to gravitate towards playing more "effective" classes. I would be bummed if all the strongest options for characters were characters with purely passive abilities that required little to no decision making, because my desires for both complexity and effectiveness would be hindered.

I tend to think that, for builds that are complex to play (eg your classic wizard), good play should put you on a par with the simple builds and bad play should leave you behind.

So I agree with your positive correlation, but not with your thresholds.

I think that players who like complex builds will go for them even if the only payoff they get is coming up to par, because they also get the pleasure of playing something complex - so I don't think your psychology issue will be an issue as long as "par" really means "par".

 

[DaedalusX51]

I feel the same way as Zardnaar about the Champion. While I want to like the subclass, I always feel disappointed that it lags so far behind the Battle Master in both damage and utility. If you play a core 4 Basic D&D game, I could see that you wouldn't have to compare it to Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, or Battle Masters. Which I guess would make them acceptable.

However, the solution for me was to just combine the Champion and the Battle Master into one subclass. Using the extra crit range of the Champion, reworking Battle Master maneuvers, and reworking the combat feats, gives me a Champion play style, but with a few combat decision points to make it a bit more interesting.

So this is what the Fighter looks like in my home games.
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJ5Cy7zLx