D&D 5E (2014) Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

[Parmandur]

In practice, I found playing a Champion to be one of the most effective PCs I've seen in action.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah, I feel your frustration. Some players I know personally have a tendency of speaking to hyperbole. Nothing is ever, "not my preference", but instead has to be "the worst thing ever." That sort of thing. Or they will rattle off white-room numbers that fail to account for the nuances of table play, or missing variables that aren't even unlikely. I've come to learn to just nod and move the conversation along rather than get into a protracted debate over it.

People are always hyperbolic and it is always the worst thing ever.

 

[TwoSix]

In practice, I found playing a Champion to be one of the most effective PCs I've seen in action.

Realistically, you could not take any subclass at all and still play a pretty decent Fighter. I think that's pretty true for most PHB classes, the subclass doesn't provide that much oomph compared to the base class features.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I had a conversation last night while driving home with my wife. It was about sloppy joe's, and it primarily consisted of her claiming to hate sloppy joe's, and me showing her that she doesn't actually hate sloppy joe's by explaining that she could eat it as an open-faced sandwich, just the mix on top of the open buns and eat it with a fork and knife, because what she actually hates is the contents falling out of a sandwich while she is trying to eat it.

Which is to say, yeah, I deal with hyberbolic statements a lot - and all of my ability to tolerate them goes to the ones my wife makes, because I love her, so I am already at or past my threshold of tolerance when I see hyperbole in my alone time.

"No. you're not freezing, you are cold", "No, you're not starving, you are hungry" -One guy who is also frequently frustrated by hyperbole.

I don't get much hyperbole in my alone time, unless "Two Succubi, One Hyperbole" is the name of a video I'm not aware of.

 

[happyhermit]

Remarkable athlete is anything but remarkable.

For example, the guidance cantrip blows remarkable athlete out of the water.
The guidance cantrip can be used for initiative just like remarkable athlete (just precast it before any combat).
The guidance cantrip stacks with skills you are already proficient in to push you to even greater heights.
The guidance cantrip applies to all 6 abilities instead of just the 3 physical ones.
The guidance cantrip can be cast on other party members to boost their ability checks.

The action cost of guidance is a drag, but realistically how often are you making a skill chexknwhere you don't have the ability to take 6 extra seconds of preparation to cast guidance.

Wait, so the fact that I could hypothetically have a Cleric in my party who could hypothetically choose this cantrip and cast it on me, thus making me even better at these checks is supposed to be a negative to this feature? Or is it the fact that they can cast it on another person, but not me, to give that one party member almost the same bonus with less predictability.

Either way, it takes the a full action and concentration, so asking for it in combat in 99% of circumstances would be a bit of a jerk move. RA on the other hand just lets me do cool stuff, all the time. If there does happen to be a Cleric in the party with that particular cantrip they could cast it on me to make me even better, or they could cast it on someone else, looks like either way RA is fine.

Wait, Bardic inspiration is even better than guidance at this stuff! It uses a resource (like guidance with concentration) and is super useful in combat only a bonus action. Oh no it can't do things that BI or RA can do GUIDANCE IS USELESS!!!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I wasn't sure which thread to put my post in, so I went for the other one, but link it here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...fix-Champion&p=6994894&viewfull=1#post6994894

 

[Ashkelon]

Wait, so the fact that I could hypothetically have a Cleric in my party who could hypothetically choose this cantrip and cast it on me, thus making me even better at these checks is supposed to be a negative to this feature? Or is it the fact that they can cast it on another person, but not me, to give that one party member almost the same bonus with less predictability.

Nope, the point is the feature gives you very little benefit if a cantrip can provide all the same benefits and then a whole lot more. Anyone can take magic initiate feat to get guidance, another cantrip, and a first level spell. Remarkable athlete is therefor less than 1/3 as good as a feat. The champion fighter would be be better if they received the guidance cantrip as opposed to RA.

Either way, it takes the a full action and concentration, so asking for it in combat in 99% of circumstances would be a bit of a jerk move. RA on the other hand just lets me do cool stuff, all the time. If there does happen to be a Cleric in the party with that particular cantrip they could cast it on me to make me even better, or they could cast it on someone else, looks like either way RA is fine.

You really don't need the stuff remarkable athlete applies to in combat. A +2 or +3 bonus to a few Dex skills. You definitely won't be using stealth in combat as a fighter. Nor will you be using sleight of hand. Maybe you will use acrobatics in combat? Remarkable Athlete is overwhelmingly used outside of combat. And outside of combat, the drawbacks of guidance disappear.

Wait, Bardic inspiration is even better than guidance at this stuff! It uses a resource (like guidance with concentration) and is super useful in combat only a bonus action. Oh no it can't do things that BI or RA can do GUIDANCE IS USELESS!!!

Your comparison clearly shows a lack of understanding of the issue. You compare like features to determine if one is good or not. The comparison with remarkable athlete to guidance is to show that a champion fighter would be better off if they had the ability to cast the guidance cantrip than they are with remarkable athlete. It's sad that the champions most useful feature could be entirely replaced by a single cantrip.

Note, I'm not saying remarkable athlete isn't a half decent feature, it's just not some wellspring of amazing utility only available to champion fighters. Anyone who says remarkable athlete is amazing is plain kidding themselves at the value of its overall utility.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd rather have an always on passive than have to rely on someone casting a cantrip on me. I'd also rather not waste a feat option on getting guidance.

I don't believe remarkable athlete is worth only 1/3 of a feat either. It's always on, so doesn't waste an action on casting a spell, and provides a consistent rather than variable bonus.



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[Ashkelon]

I'd rather have an always on passive than have to rely on someone casting a cantrip on me. I'd also rather not waste a feat option on getting guidance.

I don't believe remarkable athlete is worth only 1/3 of a feat either. It's always on, so doesn't waste an action on casting a spell, and provides a consistent rather than variable bonus.



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If there was a feat that gave you the Remarkable Athlete feature, do you think it would be a good feat?

If champions had the choice between learning the guidance cantrip or gaining the remarkable athlete feat, which feature do you think would be better overall?

The passive nature of Remarkable Athlete seems nice, but the majority of skill checks you would make with it are not checks that would be done in a situation where spending an action to cast guidance ahead of time is out of the question. Most stealth and sleight of hand checks can be done under the benefit of the guidance cantrip.

Remarkable athlete only applies to very few skill checks overall. The skills remarkable athlete applies to are Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. Athletics will most likely be trained, so gains no bonus from remarkable athlete. This leaves remarkable athlete applying to a few rolls that will rarely come up over the course of a typical gaming session. As I said, it is anything but remarkable.

 

[happyhermit]

Nope, the point is the feature gives you very little benefit if a cantrip can provide all the same benefits and then a whole lot more.

Why not start off factually, it doesn't provide all the same benefits.

Anyone can take magic initiate feat to get guidance, another cantrip, and a first level spell.

Anyone, including the fighter can take the feat (if optional feats are allowed in that game), this doesn't devalue the ability in any way, since they stack.

Remarkable athlete is therefor less than 1/3 as good as a feat.

The champion fighter would be be better if they received the guidance cantrip as opposed to RA.

Nope, because guidance doesn't do the same things and RA doesn't prevent using both.

You really don't need the stuff remarkable athlete applies to in combat.

Nobody "needs" anything in a D&D game, they want stuff.

... You definitely won't be using stealth in combat as a fighter.

So, I have to stop now? You have that power? High Dex fighters were darn good at that

Nor will you be using sleight of hand.

Hey, you aren't even my GM, what's going on here!?!

Maybe you will use acrobatics in combat?

Whew, thank you for letting me still do that I guess.

Remarkable Athlete is overwhelmingly used outside of combat.

How do you even know these facts, do you have any sources? Is it mandatory that we change our game to make this so?

And outside of combat, the drawbacks of guidance disappear.

Assuming there are no time constraints, or consequences of failure, and that the caster is re-casting it every single minute, then some of the drawbacks disappear. We are still left with a situation where guidance can be cast on the fighter to make them even awesome-er, or it can be cast on another PC which is obviously a big deal with checks ie; initiative.

Your comparison clearly shows a lack of understanding of the issue. You compare like features to determine if one is good or not.

Your comparison is apparently based on games being played in a very narrow way, and fails to see the larger picture.

The comparison with remarkable athlete to guidance is to show that a champion fighter would be better off if they had the ability to cast the guidance cantrip than they are with remarkable athlete. It's sad that the champions most useful feature could be entirely replaced by a single cantrip.

Except it really wouldn't be replaced. Even in the tiny box you have constructed the cantrip is still nearly useless in combat, doesn't have the additional benefits of the feature, requires concentration, and has downsides. RA doesn't have downsides, it is an always on bonus. Unless by "entirely replaced" you mean "swapped out for something different", it seems

Note, I'm not saying remarkable athlete isn't a half decent feature, it's just not some wellspring of amazing utility only available to champion fighters.

Here we certainly agree! I would describe it as "shoring up" rather than any sort of wellspring. It makes the fighter just all around "good" at physical skills, even if they chose a non-typical one at chargen. It helps them cover their bases and have a good chance of doing most "athletic" things.

Anyone who says remarkable athlete is amazing is plain kidding themselves at the value of its overall utility.

Or, perhaps playing the game quite differently than you are? Things like whether or not players regularly attempt improvised actions in combat, whether or not things are happening in combat other than fighting, whether or not the GM uses many skills with alternate ability scores, etc. etc. might have a big effect on how useful RA is (and most of which Guidance is almost useless for).

I am guessing your answer will be "No, people playing that way are doing it wrong, they should play in a way that makes this ability useless, like I do."