why hate rpg systems with levels?

[Wombat]

It is easy enough to measure "power levels" in games without having character levels.

Personally, my favourite systems are Ars Magica, Over the Edge, and RuneQuest. None of them have levels. Why do I prefer these level-less systems?

1) There is no sudden "power jump" with a character. Instead of suddenly gaining a great number of abilities one day ("Hey! I'm 5th level!"), you have a gradual gain in power. You can advance individual skills, rather than a whole range at once.

2) If you want to create a truly lopsided character, you are welcome to, although you will quickly find the problems with this. For example, if a Magus in Ars Magica wants to study only 1 or 2 areas of magic, he is welcome to; he will then find that he has no ability to work in any other areas. Still, it is possible to create a hyper-specialist, something less mappable in D&D.

3) The characters are more personalized and specialized. Now this is much less of an issue under D20 than under previous editions, but other games generally are able create something closer to the character you want, rather than following the track that is specifically laid before you by classes. RuneQuest is probably the greatest example of this -- want to be a warrior who dabbles in magic and opens locks, but not necessarily picks pockets or backstabs? Well, you can do it. Under D20 you would have to be at least third level to come up with a character like this; under RuneQuest you could start with such a character. This means that you are allowed, at any point in your character's development, you can tailor your character to your needs and/or desires.

I could probably come up with 1 or 2 more points, but these are the major ones for me.

Now does this mean I don't play and/or like D&D? Nope. I still play it and I still enjoy it. But there are advantages to non-level systems as well. It's simply a matter of taste.

 

[kyloss]

want to be a warrior who dabbles in magic and opens locks, but not necessarily picks pockets or backstabs? Well, you can do it. Under D20 you would have to be at least third level to come up with a character like this

Or play a bard and ignore the bardic music abilities. But you do have a valid point. Not every thing has an option with the class archetype system D20 (D&D especialy)uses.

 

[Conaill]

just curious, I have seen some complain that they hate 3.x cause it has levels? Why the hate for levels?

It's not just levels - it's the whole combination of levels, classes, and an exponential power curve. (And of course, it's not just 3.x - this is pretty much an endemic problem with all earlier versions of D&D as well - if anything, 3.x is at least moving in the right direction.)

It's not too hard to remove just the "levels" part of this equation and hand out bonuses more incrementally session-by-session, without changing anything about the class structure and power levels, but i don't think that would come even close to satisfying the people you identified as being "anti-level".

To me, the exponential power increases are probably one of the most objectionable parts of D&D. The whole idea that a level X+2 character is worth as much as two level X characters, and that you can actually reach that increase in power every couple of sessions! Personally, I get *bored* playing demi-gods. I would much rather play a smart human who has to survive on his wits and his skills.

The second most objectionable feature is the lack of flexibility. I've had a few character concepts that just plainly didn't fit into D&D's framework, and wound up developing as horribly multiclassed monstrocities. The whole "less easy to abuse" is just a straw man argument,when it comes to most alternative gaming systems. Because most of those do have mechanisms in place that discourage overspecialization, and I've *never* seen as much focus on powergaming and abusing the system as in D&D...

 

[Kast]

I like level advancement systems because they contain the characters to certain specialties. They also do a good job of ensuring, that despite the player's best efforts, the character will still be viable as the game progresses.

Some point out that they are too rigid in regards to character concepts. I think that's more a result of the flavor of the game (D&D is one) than the actual mechanic of level-based advancement. There are some level-based games that allow significant customization.

The disparity between high-level and low-level PCs is a problem with the system. This is especially true in D&D with it's hps mechanic and the high-powered scaling of the magic system. That can be a deal-breaker depending on the kind of game the group wants to play.

 

[mmadsen]

If I had to put my finger on it my reply would be the way hit points and skills are tied together.

Exactly. Hit dice are tied to level. If you create a decadent race of long-lived poet-scholars, and you make them 10th-level experts, they are, by default, tough SOBs. Give 'em pointy sticks and they'll crush 2nd-level barbarians. The greatest scholar in the land has 10 times the hit points of his apprentice (or a typical farmer) -- unless you ignore the rules, which isn't a totally invalid option, but you can see why it irks people.

 

[Acid_crash]

I can only answer for why I don't like level based games all that much...

One is how the hit point system works and the power vacuum between characters of different levels, especially when there are 5 levels between them.

Another is the lesser freedom I have in creating certain concepts that I would only be able to make by multiclassing into two, or even three, classes and also gaining some class abilities I wouldn't want but would gain anyways because they are part of the class...despite the fact that those class abilities would NOT fit the concept.

These are my two pet peeves of just about any level based system.

Skill and point based games give me the freedom to create what I want and also how to spend those points as I advance on what I want to get for my character. I get these points each session and can choose to advance them how I wish. I tend to spend the points on what I used that session (which makes me a minority like that), but that's how I like to play the game.

I don't hate d20, I enjoy playing it. I just enjoy the other games more, like HERO, d6, Dd6, Gurps, Silhouette (this game is fun), etc...

 

[shurai]

Silhouette (this game is fun), etc...

More dp9 love! Excellent!

Here's a question: Is there a d20 customization out there that somehow takes out levels and/or classes? I'm sure it would really alter the game, but I'd be fascinated to have a look at it. Is there one that any of you use by any chance?

Thanks either way.

-S

 

[Crothian]

More dp9 love! Excellent!

Here's a question: Is there a d20 customizatino out there that somehow takes out levels and/or classes? I'm sure it would really alter the game, but I'd be fascinated to have a look at it. Is there one that any of you use by any chance?

Thanks either way.

-S

Buy the numbers

my review:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=Crothian&product=BtN

 

[der_kluge]

I don't hate levels. But I can certainly understand why some people might.

What I do dislike, however, is d20's treatment of levels with regards to magic item creation and XP costs.

Oh, you've just leveled, now you have no disposable XP, huh? Oh, I'm sorry, no more item creation for you until you kill something. What's that? You're 12th level? Tough noogies, rules are rules.

 

[shurai]

Oh, you've just leveled, now you have no disposable XP, huh? Oh, I'm sorry, no more item creation for you until you kill something.

As a suggestion, here's an easy house-rule: You can always make as many magic items as you want with no penalty beyond the usual xp and financial costs, provided you don't dip below the xp total for the previous level. This means the character will always have xp to spend even if he starts making a magic items the day he hits a certain level.

Example: Bob is a 3rd level cleric; he's got 3,005 experience points. He spends 10 xp on making magic items; so his total is now 2,995. He's technically below the threshold for 3rd level, but he remains a 3rd level cleric with all the powers and abilities. However, he still has to earn 6,000 xp to reach 4th level, and passing 3,000 won't result in an additional character level.

-S