why hate rpg systems with levels?

[MoogleEmpMog]

Finally another Silhouette fan! : ] It's my favorite system. Would it help with your complaint to tell you that high levels of skill (3 and 4) are very difficult to attain because success rates grow exponentially with respect to the skill level? The probabilities are hard to work out, but I think it's the case that a level 3 skill is much better than a level 2 skill; I want to say that level 3 gunnery beats level 2 piloting more than half the time. So it makes sense that the costs rise exponentially too.

Also, I don't think that's unrealistic. It's seems true to me that as you study a particular subject or practice at a particular skill that you make huge progress at first but then later on you have to work hard to make lasting improvement.

From a game balance standpoint, this is a strength of SilCore. But from a flavor perspective, I do consider it a weakness. In my experience, those who are REALLY good at something (professionals in a very exclusive field, such as quantum physics or proffessional basketball) are vastly better at it than a talented amateur, and that their ability to get better is also vastly greater.

You could make the case that the default scale of PC-to-mook stats and skills in SilCore represents this, though.

Overall, I would rather play/GM a SilCore game than a d20 one, but I actually find, say, d20 Modern's power curve more realistic, aside from hit points.

 

[Umbran]

In a skill-based system, it is harder for players to meta-game in this fashion. In GURPS, for example, a player might say: "Hey, my character is worth a total of 122 points. How many total points is your character worth?" This example would never happen though because a player never keeps track of his points like this.

Never? You wanna put money on that? I see this sort of thing pretty darned frequently. It's not like it's hard to do - keep track of how many you've earned, and voila! It isn't like powergamers can't add and keep a running total.

So, basically, in my experience, I've found that levels can be a power-gamer's delight.

The act of levelling may make a powergamer salivate, because it is when he gets to express his inmost desires. However, in terms of game design, point-based systems are at least as powergame-tasty as levelled games, if not moreso. You see, point-based games allow you to focus on the powers you want with great precision, and allow you to neglect or minimize the aspects you don't care about. Point systems are generally easier to min/max than levelled systems.

 

[shurai]

Never? You see, point-based games allow you to focus on the powers you want with great precision, and allow you to neglect or minimize the aspects you don't care about. Point systems are generally easier to min/max than levelled systems.

You're pretty right about that; I guess I was trying to say earlier that I think powergaming happens in both kinds of systems pretty heavily. Anybody played Shadowrun recently? : ]

Here's a question: Can we conceive of a level-based game with the same basic mechanics of d20 in which more freedom is granted while at the same time providing similar classes of characters? I know one of the players in your gameday game (I can remember the fellow's face and his character (the telekinetic demon) and even the color of his hoodie but the name escapes me!) thought that d20 modern was "Gurps done right;" is that accurate?

-S

 

[Aust Diamondew]

In my experience power gaming happens more in non-level based systems (paticuarly when flaws and edges are allowed). I know thats the case in the last Shadowrun game I played at least.

The thing is that in non-level based systems you can focus all your 'XP' into the areas you want to improve. If d&d weren't level based few fighter's would by skill points with their XP. Instead they would channel it into BAB and HD and anything else to improve their combat ability.

BTW in the last Gurps game I was in every kept track of how many points they were worth and in shadow run you have to keep track of your total karma so that you know when to increase your karma pool.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I have experinced (after 20+ years of gaming) why levels can be a hinderance rather than a help.

Silver Age Sentinels d20. It is an amazing adaptation of the d20 system to the superhero genre except for one thing. Levels. They are ';shoe horned' into the rules and add next to nothing. The players get 'power points' to build their characters and buy powers, ability points etc but at the same time it also has classes and levels in each class. These are little more than prepackaged power sets that anyone else could get by spending the right power points. The levels do determine saving throws and BAB but both of these things can be 'purchased' with power points too. The classes and levels just seem redundant. It is, honestly, the first time I have encountered this.