Why I Hate Skills

[Bill Zebub]

I mean, they're worse off than they would have been if they had made the check!

I think of it this way: the starting position of the PCs at the start of the module is "might learn the important info that will help them survive". After the failed check, their position is now "did not learn the info that will help them survive". That's a notable change in their circumstances.

Maybe a better way of looking at this scenario (or, at least, a way I prefer) is that the characters already either know or don't know the information. The roll is just to find out which it is. They aren't doing something that might change that state.

Therefore a failed roll changes the state from "the characters don't know the information, but the players don't know that" to "the character still don't know the information, but now the players do know that and can plan accordingly." Which, in my opinion, is an improvement.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'll also point out that to the extent to which I talk about a change in the gaming community, that is just my perception, based on an infinitesimally small sample size. I'm not striving to adhere to the Old Ways, or emulate "classic play", etc. I have arrived at my conclusions about skills and risk through experience and a lot of contemplation and experimentation, and while it seems to me like more people used to play in an aligned way, I could be wrong. But it's neither here nor there; my goal is to move game theory forward, not backward.

 

[TwoSix]

Maybe a better way of looking at this scenario (or, at least, a way I prefer) is that the characters already either know or don't know the information. The roll is just to find out which it is. They aren't doing something that might change that state.

Therefore a failed roll changes the state from "the characters don't know the information, but the players don't know that" to "the character still don't know the information, but now the players do know that and can plan accordingly." Which, in my opinion, is an improvement.

Pretty much all knowledge checks in skill-based systems basically acknowledge that a particular character's knowledge is all in a Schrodinger's box state; the check is just when we actually decide to open it.

I do think the check will generally have an in-fiction narration, though; it's the character taking a second to wrack their brain and try to remember a detail. That isn't always applicable, but I think it's pretty common for situations that call for some kind of Lore/Knowledge/Intelligence check.

 

[bsss]

If the players don't know, and can't reasonably learn, that they have 36 turns, then the GM's clock doesn't add much to gameplay.

Sorry, yeah, I agree, I shouldn't have said "in his head" in the sense that it's a secret. The players would have to know they're at least under some kind of crunch time, and that their lock picking or combat or whatever are taking away slices of that time. I just meant "in his head" that he's going "(okay, three lock pick attempts, that's about 10% of the time lost, they're already halfway through the dungeon but only have an hour left, they should pick up the pace...)" and figuring out how to moderate that or leave an out/in-game note about the clock.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Pretty much all knowledge checks in skill-based systems basically acknowledge that a particular character's knowledge is all in a Schrodinger's box state; the check is just when we actually decide to open it.

Right. So the "consequence" also existed before opening the box.

I do think the check will generally have an in-fiction narration, though; it's the character taking a second to wrack their brain and try to remember a detail. That isn't always applicable, but I think it's pretty common for situations that call for some kind of Lore/Knowledge/Intelligence check.

IMO that's a handwavey invention to explain why knowledge checks require a roll. I mean, sometimes it makes sense (Gandalf trying to remember opening spells), but every time a player asks if their character knows something, it requires their character to "wrack their brain"? There are no occasions where the 18 Int Wizard (or even the 5 Int Genius!) doesn't immediately know the answer?

 

[TwoSix]

IMO that's a handwavey invention to explain why knowledge checks require a roll. I mean, sometimes it makes sense (Gandalf trying to remember opening spells), but every time a player asks if their character knows something, it requires their character to "wrack their brain"? There are no occasions where the 18 Int Wizard (or even the 5 Int Genius!) doesn't immediately know the answer?

To be clear, I'm strongly against "checks to see if a character knows something" in general. If a player asks for info, I tell them the information their character would know, based on their overall character concept.

The only time I require a check, normally, is when the information is relatively obscure, and when knowing the information has an obvious consequence.

 

[VHawkwinter]

That depends very much on other features of play and system.

Eg if there is a light clock, and/or a wandering monster clock, and/or a hunger/exhaustion clock, then spending time is quite important.

Less important is not unimportant. But sure. But my point was that time spent is often still a consequence.

 

[pemerton]

Pretty much all knowledge checks in skill-based systems basically acknowledge that a particular character's knowledge is all in a Schrodinger's box state; the check is just when we actually decide to open it.

Flashbacks!

 

[pemerton]

Less important is not unimportant. But sure. But my point was that time spent is often still a consequence.

If there's no clock that the players can work against and/or try to control then, in my view, the consequence seems to be just prompting the GM to narrate something.

Which the GM was presumably going to do anyway, if the game was not going to just wrap up at that point.

 

[VHawkwinter]

If there's no clock that the players can work against and/or try to control then, in my view, the consequence seems to be just prompting the GM to narrate something.

Which the GM was presumably going to do anyway, if the game was not going to just wrap up at that point.

When you say clock do you mean it in the OSR "visual progress clock" sense, or does "the game runs on calendars and timelines and appointments and time tracking and encounter / event intervals" count?