Why I Hate Sorcerors

[kigmatzomat]

Not counting cantrips....
At 20th level, the Sorcerer has ... 31 spells

If a wizard didn't pay for any scribing, they would have ... 42-45 spells.

Considering that wizards have to pick their spells ahead of time, they should get considerably more spells than sorcerers.

I disagree. Wizards get roughly 50% more spells than sorcerors do for free (no significant GP or XP cost). In return they have a liability that those spells can be absconded with.

Let's not forget the wider skill list available to base wizards and not needing a full-round to cast metamagicked spells. Speaking of metamagics, Wizards get 5 bonus feats, 4 of which they can choose more or less freely. Sorcerors get....nothing.

And as far as the constant expense of spellbooks, it is at least an option. Sorcerors spend a feat for EACH additional spell they want to learn. Blerg.

Something I've seen so few people do, even temporarily, is to use the "borrowed spellbook" rules. You CAN prepare a spell from a found book. It isn't always easy (spellcraft DC15-24), but it can be done. Especially since you can take 10 on the check in many cases. It might increase your prep time at GM caveat (my rule is +1 minute/spell level per spell) but having a spellcraft of (max spell level +6) should not be hard. The mage in the game I run has acquired a number of spellbooks over time that he has stashed in various places and with friends. At 10th level his Spellcraft+int is 14, meaning he will NEVER fail when taking 10 to prepare from one of these found books. It may take him 2 hours to prepare his spells, but so what? He's neither down nor out, just a bit slower.

So I don't see the wizard as all that hampered by his books or lack thereof compared to sorcerors.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Wizards get roughly 50% more spells than sorcerors do for free (no significant GP or XP cost).

So what? Sorcerers can cast roughly 15% more spells a day than wizards AND can choose what spells to cast on the fly. That's the important part. If I want, I can cast 12 polymorph others, while the wizard is stuck casting whatever he happened to memorize, regardless of its usefulness to the situation.

BTW, hate to break it to you, but most spells are not worth learning.

Let's not forget the wider skill list available to base wizards

Actually I will forget it, as those extra skills are about as useful as the sorcerer's proficiency with simple weapons. Besides, I'm always cross-classing to get Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information and Intimidate. Since my Int generally stays at a 10, 12 or 14 for the whole game, all of the knowledge skills don't mean a hill o'beans. I'm already tapped out just trying to max Concentration.

and not needing a full-round to cast metamagicked spells.

I'm assuming you mean full-round action. Really, it's not so bad. Most of the time, I'm metamagicking buffs. The only time it's ever an issue is when the sorcerer is hasted. I think it all evens out because of the very nature of being able to spontaneously metamagic. That's pretty neat. Not having to exactly memorize your metamagicks means that you won't ever waste a twice-empowered fireball when you really only needed a normal fireball.

Speaking of metamagics, Wizards get 5 bonus feats, 4 of which they can choose more or less freely. Sorcerors get....nothing.

How many metamagic feats and item creation feats do you really need? Aren't the character feats enough? Again, sorcerers aren't like Pokemon trainers. You don't need to catch them all to be effective.

And as far as the constant expense of spellbooks, it is at least an option. Sorcerors spend a feat for EACH additional spell they want to learn. Blerg.

Yup. I have no problem with that. Sorcerers = SPD and spontaneous casting, wizards = SK, item creation and metamagic. Players who want to play sorcerers as if they are wizards should be playing wizards.

Something I've seen so few people do, even temporarily, is to use the "borrowed spellbook" rules.

The PHB, under Spellcraft, says:

"Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook. (Wizard Only) One try per day."

We interpreted this to mean that a wizard can only attempt to prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook once a day, not once a day per spell. Does anyone have any clarification on this?

 

[Petrosian]

"Something I've seen so few people do, even temporarily, is to use the "borrowed spellbook" rules. "

The reason it gets used so infrequently from my experience is the requirement that you already know/have scribed in your spellbook, the spell you try to borrow.

So, that means this is useful when a spell that you have in your spellbooks BUT DONT HAVE ON YOU NOW (left at home in the unwanted spells pile, lost, stolen, destroyed?) but which just happens to be in someone else's spellbook that you have acquired (borrowed, stolen, begged) is needed.

These circumstances are somewhat rare overall.

Besides, its much cheaper to get a haversack or bag of holding and carry around your necessary books.

All in all, the spellbook is one of the limitations used to balance the wizard by consuming his time and monies in addition to providing an achille's heel.

it seems to work just fine, unless you are in a campaign where time or money is not a limiting issue.

 

[Petrosian]

Why do i like sorcerers?

its good to have a somewhat generic arcane caster that you can use and tailor thru character choices to meet oh so many "mage" archtypes that are not "the frail, academic wizard with bulging spellbooks."

it seems so dull if the wizard is it.

 

[kigmatzomat]

BTW, hate to break it to you, but most spells are not worth learning.
[/i]

Yes, but there are more spells worth knowing than sorcerors have slots.


Actually I will forget it, as those extra skills are about as useful as the sorcerer's proficiency with simple weapons. Besides, I'm always cross-classing to get Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information and Intimidate. Since my Int generally stays at a 10, 12 or 14 for the whole game, all of the knowledge skills don't mean a hill o'beans. I'm already tapped out just trying to max Concentration.


So you've never been higher than 8th level, eh? (int 14=max 4th level spells for wizard) That could be why you feel the way you do. A 20th level wizard can pick up rings of wizardry, pearls of power, and prepare Mnemonic Enhancer so they can have a wide variety of spells prepared that they can cast multiple times and that ignores having (Limited) Wish available. A 20th level sorceror is constantly strapped for just the right spell, having to spend feats on energy substitution just to have a mix of spells that can inflict damage while still fitting in their limited selection. But you don't think they need that many feats.

At higher levels Concentration becomes pretty moot. By 10th level a maxed concentration (with no Con bonus) is 13; any non-botch will allow a successful combat casting. After that you start seriously picking up knowledge skills."What is that? Where did it come from? What does it want?" are the things needed to know what spell to use or which bit of metamagic. What good does it do a sorceror to have the spells he needs if they have no clue when to use it? Now get the skills at cross-class costs. Ouch. Better ask the wizard.

From experience, sorcerors are better first contacts because in the short term they are infinitely flexible within their available spells. After first contact, the wizard tends to be superior as he can tailor his spells for maximum effectiveness. This is why wizards at higher levels should only prepare about half their spells at a time so they can fine tune their selection given 15 minutes of down time.



I'm assuming you mean full-round action. Really, it's not so bad.


Any fullround casting done in our games results in any sentient NPCs targeting the caster from then on. The theory is "if it takes that much effort for them to cast, it can't be good for us."


Sorcerers = SPD and spontaneous casting, wizards = SK, item creation and metamagic. Players who want to play sorcerers as if they are wizards should be playing wizards.


The correlary would be "Players who want to play wizards as if they were sorcerers should be playing sorcerers." Although from your preferred skill list, you might want to consider at least multiclassing to bard a bit.



The PHB, under Spellcraft, says:

"Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook. (Wizard Only) One try per day."

We interpreted this to mean that a wizard can only attempt to prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook once a day, not once a day per spell. Does anyone have any clarification on this?

I read that as "a wizard may only prepare a particular spell from a borrowed spellbook once per day. They may prepare other spells from a borrowed spell book but only once each per day."

The SRD seems to say that you have to make the spellcraft check for each preparation but that you can have multiple preparations as long as you don't fail. If you fail you must wait until the next day to prepare that spell from that particular source but if you have another book with the same spell you can try to prepare from that.


Here's the full text from the SRD:

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared the spell before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

[bSo you've never been higher than 8th level, eh? (int 14=max 4th level spells for wizard) That could be why you feel the way you do. [/B]

No, he means he's never bothered with Int higher than 14 for a sorcerer, not a wizard. A sorcerer's high Cha means it's a Good Thing for him to have ranks in Cha-based skills, but since they're all cross-class, he doesn't have skill points left over for Knowledge skills anyway.

Any fullround casting done in our games results in any sentient NPCs targeting the caster from then on. The theory is "if it takes that much effort for them to cast, it can't be good for us."

Casual observation shouldn't really be able to tell the difference between the casting time of a metamagicked or non-metamagicked spell from a sorcerer. Note the difference between a full-round action (spell goes off immediately, caster is limited to a 5' step) and a one-round casting time (caster spends several seconds chanting and waving arms about, is vulnerable to Concentration checks from any damage incurred for an entire intiative cycle, spell goes off at the start of caster's next action).

A wizard casting an Empowered Magic Missile can cast and move 30' (or whatever his speed is).

A sorcerer casting an Empowered Magic Missile can cast and take a 5' step.

Both spells go off immediately. It's not usually obvious that the sorcerer didn't move further by necessity, rather than choice.

A wizard or sorcerer casting Summon Monster III takes noticeably longer - it's six seconds or thereabouts from when he starts casting to when he finishes.

That, people can pick up on - and generally casting a spell like that in combat will make you the target of everyone who has a vested interest in preventing you completing it!

-Hyp.

 

[steveroe]

The best thing about sorcerers...

The Best thing about sorcerers is EVERYTHING!!

I played a sorcerer character in a campaign from 4th through 16th level and had loads of fun. He never ran out of spells and was effective in almost every fight.

We played a combat heavy, tactical assualt style game. The sorcerer was a very good choice. He was fun to play. The flexible casting also reduced my bookeping compared to playing a wizard who must choose spells before a fight.

So, since a sorcerer is so much fun to play I can only conclude that If you hate sorceres then you must also hate fun. Do you hate fun?

steve

 

[bmcdaniel]

Re: The best thing about sorcerers...

The Best thing about sorcerers is EVERYTHING!!

I played a sorcerer character in a campaign from 4th through 16th level and had loads of fun. He never ran out of spells and was effective in almost every fight.

We played a combat heavy, tactical assualt style game. The sorcerer was a very good choice. He was fun to play. The flexible casting also reduced my bookeping compared to playing a wizard who must choose spells before a fight.

So, since a sorcerer is so much fun to play I can only conclude that If you hate sorceres then you must also hate fun. Do you hate fun?

steve

Bah, I played a game where the sorceror ruined everything. It was supposed to be a heavy roleplaying game set in the forgotten realsms, but his constant powergaming turned it into a combat heavy, tactical assault style game. The sorceror did nothing but cast energy-substituted sonic fireballs at everything in sight. He'd never let us talk to the monsters or sneak around their cave/complex.

He went into every fight flying, improved invisible, polymorph-selfed as a dragon, with true seeing, blah, blah blah. Not only that but he insisted that we all crawl into a portable hole while he teleported around. This sorceror took one level in the mindbender prestige class just to gain the telepathy ability and skill boosts - he didn't want to to take a second level because he'd lose a level of spellcasting! and he never talked to any monsters anyway, all he would do is throw fireballs! The worst of it was that we had to start powergaming just to try to keep competitive with him!

So, since a sorceror is so obviously a munchkin's class I can only conclude that if you like sorcerors then you must also be a munchkin. Are you a munchkin?

-Brian

 

[Zhure]

Re: Re: The best thing about sorcerers...

He went into every fight flying, improved invisible, polymorph-selfed as a dragon, with true seeing, blah, blah blah.

Why waste the fly spell? If he was polymorphed into a dragon, he could already fly.



The whole sorcerer vs wizard debate comes down to resources (downtime, gold). In low-resource games, the sorcerer comes out way ahead. In high-resource games, the wizard is far preferable. In typical, unbiased games, they're fairly balanced.

Greg

 

[Hashmalum]

Actually, Magic of Faerun has a rule allowing wizards to "attune" themselves to another wizard's spellbook, allowing them to forever after use it as if it were their own. (Despite the name, it's not a mystical process that somehow alters the book; instead, it means that the wizard has taken the time to master the unfamiliar notations used by the other spellcaster). It requires a Spellcraft check with a DC of 25 + the highest level spell in the book and takes ten days plus one day per spell in the book. In the case of captured spellbooks, this can save a wizard a LOT of money and a decent amount of time.

In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, it's also implied that a sorcerer can use a wish spell to replace one spell known with a different one. So there are ways around the problem of obsolete or poorly chosen spells on your sorcerer spell list--they're just very expensive.