Why I refuse to support my FLGS

[lgburton]

The other day, with my normally 3.5 group, we played a little Pirates of the _____*, a collectible card game in which you actually build 3D models of your ships from the plastic cards. I had a blast.

* There are three sets in current circulation: Pirates of the Spanish Main, Pirates of the Crimson Shore, and Pirates of the Revolution.

EDIT: Grammar.

i might suggest a second edit:
Pirates of the Crimson Coast, not "crimson shore"

the only problem i have with playing that game is this: like all collectable games, the entire gameplay issue comes down to who can spend more money. and that's just boring, in the long run.

 

[Gareman]

What's going to happen

As a gamer and a store owner, I'm unhappy with the current situation. RPG's are why I opened my store, and now I see no reason to support the many RPG's I have in stock. I can tell you exactly what I'm planning as a result of RPG malaise and low sales.

First, D20 is dead, so unless there's a compelling product, don't expect to find it in the store. Those D20 items that I order will be treated like magazines -- sell them for a few weeks and then don't re-order them. As an industry, I expect this will mean lack of innovation as smaller publishers disappear, so I'm hoping you like what Wizards of the Coast is publishing, because it's going back to the old days, where that was your only choice.

Second, most non-D&D games are done. There are many systems out there, but I'll keep the 5 or so that sell well and drop all the others. Those White Wolf pseudo-gamers can complain all they want about the new World of Darkness-- at home, because lack of sales is driving those books of my store.

Third, all that new space I have will go to those who support their local game stores, notably, collectible (paintable) miniature gamers. My racks of RPG products will soon be replaced by Flames of War, Warmachine and Confrontation.

As a businessman, I'm not going to ask you to spend money with me because it's morally correct. You either find me a useful resource (an added value) or you don't need me and you'll buy online. Go do that. But don't expect to find your game supported at my store. No dice for you, unless their D6.

 

[JohnNephew]

Also, The Source is actually owned by the same company that also owns Fantasy Flight Games, and Atlas Games. It's a holding company called Trident Inc.

Hi! It's great to hear so much praise of my FLGS, The Source, but I thought I should step in to clear up some information.

Atlas Games is formally organized as Trident, Inc. "Atlas Games" is a registered DBA (a business alias, if you will).

Originally, Atlas Games was a sole proprietorship -- me. When I needed investment to help do a CCG, more than a decade ago, I went to one of the finest retailers in the country with my idea -- The Source Comics & Games (formally organized as Adventure Retail Ltd.). We formed a new corporation (Trident) to publish On the Edge CCG. The partnership went so well that we ultimately folded all my old Atlas Games operations into the new entity.

So the simple way to put this is: The Source is a shareholder in Atlas Games. (I am the other one.) We also take full advantage of their retailing expertise -- the staff of the Source runs our booths at all the major game conventions.

Neither The Source nor Atlas Games owns or is owned by Fantasy Flight Games. We are all on great terms, and have collaborated business in various ways over the years (we even used to share office/warehouse space!), but there is no cross-ownership.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Neither The Source nor Atlas Games owns or is owned by Fantasy Flight Games. We are all on great terms, and have collaborated business in various ways over the years (we even used to share office/warehouse space!), but there is no cross-ownership.

This must be the source of the misunderstanding (the sharing of office/warehouse space) from the person who told me all three were one big happy corporate family.

Glad to be corrected!

 

[GVDammerung]

I searched every store in the Twin Cities for the Dungeon issue with the final Greyhawk map. Everyone was out. The Source specifically told me they wouldn't carry Paizo's products because they advertise the online store. They would order them for me, but wouldn't "waste shelf space advertising competitors." They still had OLD issues, but weren't getting new ones in.

Mccrow has indicated they now have both titles. Perhaps the employee was wrong. Perhaps the policy changed. Perhaps Mccrow only saw old issues on the shelf that haven't sold yet. The above is just my experience.

Similar experience. Different outcome. For me it was a scavenger hunt for the 1st GH map issue. Then, I just special ordered from the Source. Had them within a week of when Paizo said they had shipped to subscribers. I thought that outstanding service.

At the time, the Source was not carrying Paizo products because of the ad circulars and the Paizo web store, I asked Beryl, the manager. Since that time, they have started carrying Paizo products again.

To each their own, but the Source is the finest game store I have even shopped. Practically full line of game products. Special orders as necessary but rarely over a week until delivery. Discount (10% w/ card) on both in store and special orders. Knowledgeable staff. Very friendly, my wife and I are greeted by name (but then we're in there every week). No hasseles if, after an hour brousing, we buy nothing - and that happens sometimes for 3 weeks in a row or so. Staff will even commiserate that "its a slow week/month for new releases." Two game sales every year with HUGE discounts, one of which is the store birthday party with cake, drinks, hotdogs etc. plus prize drawings - all FREE. Special events - 30th D&D featured some guy named Monte Cook (nice guy, even if I don't buy everything with his name on it just because it has his name on it), another guy named Dave Arneson (another nice guy) has also been featured and MAR Barker (didn't meet him), if memory serves. Regular tournaments for practically everything. Game space.

Also sells comics, anime, some fiction and fantasy books, SF/Fantasy videos.

Won't tell you your business but you might consider giving the Source another chance.

I support the Source because it offers a social dynamic for gamers to interact with gamers face to face, in my area (Twin Cities Metro), on a daily/weekly basis.

I do not game in the store as a general rule, as I prefer a quieter atmosphere in which to DM.

When a game store like the Source goes the extra mile that is worth something to me and I will pay more by shopping there than I could buying from Amazon etc. Its all about what you want and what you get for your dollar.

IMO

 

[Dristram]

From a game store owner and a gamer

I’ve debated on chiming in or not, but since Gary did, I guess I will. I’ve been an RPGer since 1983. I had fanciful dreams of some day being able to open my own game store and make a living at it. When I got laid off from my engineering job in 2003, I took that opportunity to do just that. Since I am a role-player, I wanted my game store to be focused on RPGs. I filled my store with them as much as I could and got more and more as I could afford to. As it is, all my love of RPGs hasn’t made them my main product, which is disappointing. RPGs make up 25% of my inventory, but only 17% of my sales. On the other hand, CCGs make up only 5% of my inventory, but 21% of my sales! That is amazing! I wanted to open a game store mainly to sell RPGs, but found myself quickly turning into a card shop. As much as I tried to get more sales from RPGs, the competition from mainly on-line stores defeated me. Instead of me being viewed as someone supporting the hobby and providing RPGs to sell, I’ve been seen by some as “ripping them off” by selling at “full retail”. This has been very disappointing to me. And hearing comments by some on this thread has disheartened me. I believe if it wasn’t for on-line stores, existing game stores would be fully stocked with RPGs, and there would be many more game stores to choose from. But such is not the case, and it’s looking at getting worse. In order for game stores to survive, they find themselves grasping onto the big sellers like CCGs, Clix games, and even Comics. And in some stores like Gary's, the RPGs start getting pushed aside for what makes money. RPGers get turned off by a lack of focus on RPGs, but it’s either the stores make that change, or close shop.

Some say a game store could compete with on-line stores or the Wal-marts of the world, if they offered a discount. But that’s not as effective as it sounds. If a store offered a flat 20% discount on RPGs, they’d have to sell over double the number of RPG products, just to make a little more than without the discount. Just doubling sales with such a discount is unheard of. Game stores that sell at full retail are not getting rich off of gamers. They are not ripping gamers off. They are selling at the price to pay the bills. Good game stores keep doing what they are doing thinking that gamers want them around. Game stores that discount are doing so at the risk of putting their store out of business. For them, I would hasten to guess that RPG sales don’t make up much of their overall sales to begin with so a discount on RPGs doesn’t make much of a difference on their bottom-line. There is nothing wrong with paying full retail. It’s a price that is set to make sure the manufacturer gets the money they need to pay the bills, and for the distributor to get what they need to pay the bills, and then finally for the retail store to get what it needs to pay the bills. When a retail store is forced to discount, *they* are the only ones being hurt. The manufacturers and distributors got their money. And the customer got a good deal. But the retail store then worries about paying their bills. The “big” stores have the fortune to be able to purchase the product at the cost distributors get it for, thus being able to sell at a much lower price, and still keep the lights on.

I am in full agreement that if a game store is not a “Friendly” game store, then by all means, don’t support them. Let them go away and make room for a good game store to spring up. Just because it’s a game store doesn’t mean gamers should support them. But if you’re a gamer that likes going to a store that is dedicated your hobby, support them or they *will* go away. I don’t want to see that happen, well, I guess because that will mean me loosing my store, but mainly because I absolutely love the feeling I get walking into a store and being surrounded by all kinds of RPGs and other hobby games. And also knowing I have something in common with every customer in the store. Shopping for RPGs at Wal-mart, book stores, or on-line, just doesn’t do it for me personally. So, I for one, do not want to see game stores go away.

I appreciated and supported my local game stores before getting laid off, and now after opening my own game store, I have a renewed appreciation for them.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Honestly, I find it very difficult to fault people for making decisions based on price. That's pretty much how we buy just about eveyrthing else. How many people here will pay more for, say, gasoline in order to patronize a particular seller, barring some perk program?

I don't fault decisions made on price- I fault decisions made SOLEY for price. For most things I buy, I consider price, location, customer service- everything that goes into the shopping experience...but then again, I'm an MBA/JD. I try to look at the big picture whenever I make a major purchase, or when deciding which stores deserve my continued patronage. Take Wal-Mart, for example.

I have nothing against the company, per se- there's a lot of good to be said for delivering a wide variety of goods affordably. However, they are being investigated in several states for paying such low wages that a large percentage of their employees are on welfare- its estimated that Wal-Mart employees cost California over $2B in welfare expenditures. And, not are they underpaying their employees, they also use their market power like a club. Not only do they overbuild in an area to drive out all competition (and then close a couple of stores to restore profitability), they also order certain lower-quality products exclusively for their chain. For example-if you are shopping for a "Bob's Electronix Portable CD player Model MX11," you may be able to find a "Bob's Electronix Portable CD player Model MX11-W" on Wal-Mart shelves...and its going to be both cheaper than anywhere else...AND it will be made of less durable and dependable parts.

As for gas- I HAVE paid more for gas when I felt a particular company was being a little more lax in its environmental policies or if the station made my shopping experience better or worse than normal...but then again, I'm a black guy in the South who also used to be member of Greenpeace. I guarantee you that I'm going to pay more for gas when the discounter down my street has "My Wife Ran Away with a Ni**er" blaring on the store PA system (true story, BTW).

 

[Boojum]

This thread has gotten me thinking about and trying to analyze my own buying habits. The way that I look at it (subconsciously until just now) is that each purchase I make (not limited to gaming) is made because the value or utility to me of making that purchase exceeds the utility that I get from the money in my pocket. The product itself is the biggest contributor to the value that I get from the purchase, but other factors like comfort, convenience, speed, and so on also play a part, as does my own knowledge of who is getting my money. As several other people have said, a game store that offers other intangible benefits makes up for spending a few extra dollars. However, a bad store is not worth supporting simply because it is a game store.

This isn't limited to game stores either, as other places that display trends that I want to reward are more likely to get my money. I was at a Barnes and Noble the other day, and bought a couple packs of D&D miniatures and the new Warhammer FRP. One of the main reasons for this is that someone at this particular location has obviously put some thought, effort, and research into this section of the store, as it is well-stocked, with wide aisles, very accessible (right next to the cafe section) rather than tucked away in a corner somewhere, and has a couple of shelves and a spinning rack displaying books from the front rather than just packing them on the shelves with only the spine visible. Also, the fact that they went beyond just WotC and WW by offering stuff by GR and some other publishers was impressive. All of this is behavior that I would like to see be profitable and so be sustained and spread to other stores, so I rewarded it by spending money there. I think that this sort of section has every chance of helping grow the hobby. Someone noted above that the FLGS can nurture new gamers, but can't create them. I agree, since if you take a potential gamer who would be receptive to the game but is not actively pursuing it, they are unlikely to ever step into a game store. However, it seems much more likely to me that such a person could be in a B&N, walk by a display and be intrigued by a cover or title, and take a closer look. By contrast, when I am at another location that has the bare minimum (1/2 shelf of WotC releases in a corner of the sci-fi section), I wouldn't buy a book there even if they had one that I wanted.

Admittedly, part of the reason that I am so willing to do that is because I haven't found a FLGS that I like since moving to Orange County. Even if I had, though, I think that increasing availability and visibility in traditional retail outlets is at least as worth supporting as the FLGS. As a number of people have noted, the FLGS does offer knowledgeable staff, gaming space, and so on, and are very helpful in bringing someone further into the hobby once their interest is piqued. In an ideal world, we'd have both of these, but I think that the initial exposure may well be more important to the growth of the hobby as a whole, since finding other players, product advice, and so on, is pretty easily done on the internet once you decide to look for it.

All things considered, I probably spend the biggest chunk of my gaming budget at Legends, the FLGS that I grew up with in San Jose, but it's not very often that I get up there anymore. The next biggest chunk goes to the ENworld online store, followed by everything else. By all means think about where your money is going, but there are valid reasons for supporting institutions other than FLGSs.

 

[Glyfair]

Someone noted above that the FLGS can nurture new gamers, but can't create them. I agree, since if you take a potential gamer who would be receptive to the game but is not actively pursuing it, they are unlikely to ever step into a game store.

Maybe. I know the main store in the area has created gamers. They are on the main street of a college town. In addition to gaming, they carry related products including fantasy "gift items." A lot of people stop by to look at the gift items (ceramic dragons, fairies and the like) and ask about the gaming stuff. Some eventually dip into the gaming pool.

 

[Belen]

I appreciated and supported my local game stores before getting laid off, and now after opening my own game store, I have a renewed appreciation for them.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA

Brad: A lot of us are with you. I make sure to run at least two RPG events through my FLGS/month. I have found that just getting people to visit the store has made a difference. Also, I have noticed that a lot of people come to these sessions because they have no regular group and have not been able to make time for one. They do not always buy stuff, but I have noticed that the RPG section is picking up.

I do not think that a lot of posters on this thread have any clue about what is happening behind the scenes. It seems that a lot of younger people are ONLY concerned about price and feel that there will be some type of business around to "serve" them no matter what happens.

They are wrong.

And, I have just received word that Star Wars d20 is officially dead. No more products are planned and all support for the game is finished. The SW d20 game has been completely replaced by the Star Wars Miniatures game.

I wonder what those people buying from Amazon will say when D&D moves to a collectable miniatures game with no RPG support.

Wizards makes a lot of money off there minis line and stores have no trouble selling them.