Why I refuse to support my FLGS

[TheYeti1775]

Not an exception I would say.
I tend to fall into those with disposable income as well.
What can I say, I like to buy toys for myself.
Though buying toys for my son can be just as fun. (I get to relive my youth.)

Just as a curious question, how much of a discount do they give you at that store?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just to be clear- I do order stuff online- but only after I have exhausted local options.

This is absurd. So, browsers in a store shopping around for the best price are unethical. That's a good one.

No, what is unethical is:
1) Entering the store to browse while
2) knowing full well that you will not buy anything in the store.

You are adding to the wear and tear of the shop, taking up time of an employeee, and possibly even damaging the product, all in the full knowlege that you will never buy anything in there.

This is different from merely shopping around.

Ed Roman Guitars of Las Vegas is one of the worlds most famous guitar shops. They have a no-play policy because people used to come in, try out a guitar, and then order an identical guitar (or go elsewhere) because the one they just tried out was "used."

To use the car example:

When I buy a car, I'll take test drives to find out about which kind of car I want. When I decide upon a model, I'll ask questions about the dealerships. THEN I'll start negotiating about price- and the dealers will know that I'm shopping around.

The cheaper car does NOT neccessarily win. I'm willing to pay more (and HAVE) for a car from a quality dealership (better service department, late service hours, etc.), or even from one that had more polite staff.

And, I'm also willing to walk away from the model and start the process over with a different model of car.

But I NEVER go to a dealership to try out a car knowing I will absolutely never buy a car from that dealership. If I don't like them, I don't go back- AND I let them know why and that I'll be telling my friends why.

This is real- there are certain dealerships in Texas that don't think black people buy BMW's or Audis, or that we'd buy $30k cars without test drives. Does their attitude change when they find out I'm a lawyer? Sure- but mine doesn't.

Service matters, and I reward it.

 

[freebfrost]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the act of going in in all cases, browsing knowing you aren't going to purchase right this outing, but are leaving open the chance that you might later is not under this "law"... IMO. Because you do plan on buying it later from the storekeeper who is displaying his product. Most store owners don't even mind and actually expect this.

So you are saying that as a store owner, you expect everyone who comes into your store to buy something?

Ever hear of window shopping? Ever test drive a car knowing you were not buying one - or even just testing it for fun? Ever go house hunting and "wasted" the realtor's time going through a house you would never purchase?

But going to a store, browsing, knowing before going in there is no chance the storekeeper will be able to sell you something, even if you brush off the hired help saying "don't worry about me, I'm not buying because I buy online from your competitor", this is still unethical. If you want to feel good about yourself and abide by the "law" and still never buy your books from the store, buy the occassional dice set or mini every now and then.

Are you paying the storekeeper for a service or are you buying his products?

In the case you are presenting, they are selling you a product. Here's where everyone is constantly blurring the issue in this thread, and here is where I'm making my point. I am interested in buying a product. I do not owe anything to the storekeeper, nor to his hired help. As a consumer I only want my product - in this case, Book XYZ. It could be a car, a house, clothes, whatever. I try it, decide I like it, but know that the same product is 50% cheaper at Amazon, so buy it online instead.

So everyone in the product chain gets their money, and I get my product. The seller who I didn't buy the product from loses his cut from the chain because he wasn't (cheap /helpful/providing enough ancillary services - choose one) - this is called a free market economy.

Where does ethics fit into this?

 

[freebfrost]

Not an exception I would say.
I tend to fall into those with disposable income as well.
What can I say, I like to buy toys for myself.
Though buying toys for my son can be just as fun. (I get to relive my youth.)

Just as a curious question, how much of a discount do they give you at that store?

18% on all products except Dwarven Forge sets - those I get at 25% off.

 

[freebfrost]

Just to be clear- I do order stuff online- but only after I have exhausted local options.



No, what is unethical is:
1) Entering the store to browse while
2) knowing full well that you will not buy anything in the store.

You are adding to the wear and tear of the shop, taking up time of an employeee, and possibly even damaging the product, all in the full knowlege that you will never buy anything in there.

This is different from merely shopping around.

And any decent business will account for this wear and tear.

So, if you are in a china shop that posts a sign "Break it - you buy it, " and you break an items accidentally, do you pay for it?

Ed Roman Guitars of Las Vegas is one of the worlds most famous guitar shops. They have a no-play policy because people used to come in, try out a guitar, and then order an identical guitar (or go elsewhere) because the one they just tried out was "used."

I wonder if they ever figured out the cost of doing so versus their savings from not depreciating products? "World Famous" does not a good accountant/businessman necessarily make.

To use the car example:

When I buy a car, I'll take test drives to find out about which kind of car I want. When I decide upon a model, I'll ask questions about the dealerships. THEN I'll start negotiating about price- and the dealers will know that I'm shopping around.

Test drives create wear and tear. Who pays for that?

This is real- there are certain dealerships in Texas that don't think black people buy BMW's or Audis, or that we'd buy $30k cars without test drives. Does their attitude change when they find out I'm a lawyer? Sure- but mine doesn't.

Service matters, and I reward it.

Service certainly factors in to any buying decision, but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it. To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I avoided this thread cause I didn't know what a FLGS was and didn't care, but now I have seen this thread up for quite a bit so I thought I would check it out. I assume that FLGS is something along the lines of Family Local Game Store, right? If so, then I have to say, while I love the fact that they try to be open and friendly and have great places to play, for the most part, I don't make enough use of them to be loyal to them when they jack the prices through the roof.

I have not always been so lucky in my income as I am now so I have very little love for those who try to crew me out of my hard earned money. I feel bad that they have a hard time making a buck compared to the bigger stores but it is not my problem. The funny thing is when one store wants a box of Magic cards for $120 and the other will sell them for $70, where would you go?

People who support local game stores are mostly doing so out of love of the owner and feel a need to support them cause they wish they could have such a life. I say they should get ready to compete or get out. I don't hate small store owners, one of my friends is one, but I will not buy from him if he jacks the price and he knows it.

PS If I am wrong about the FLGS being something along the lines of a Family Local Gaming Store, disregard this message.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

So you are saying that as a store owner, you expect everyone who comes into your store to buy something?

Ever hear of window shopping?

Gosh, why no, I haven't heard of that. :rolls eyes: Window shopping is looking at the wares from outside the store through the... wait for it... window! You haven't gone in and handled the product the storekeeper owns or taken up any of his attention or employees time.

Ever test drive a car knowing you were not buying one - or even just testing it for fun?

Yes, that's unethical. Go ahead and do it, I didn't say it was illegal.

Ever go house hunting and "wasted" the realtor's time going through a house you would never purchase?

Realtors and home sellers are aware folks are coming through to "see what the neighbor's house is like" with no intention of buying it. Every homeowner is also a potential homeseller in the same market as everyone else. Realtors also use the event to sell their services to future potential homesellers. Rarely is some publisher going into a store to check the competitors products to do industry research with the intent ahead of time to never purchase.

Frankly, I haven't gone house hunting never intending to purchase a home. I only house hunt the houses I can afford. As a neighbor I do on occassion go into a home having an open house never intending to buy it but then everytime it has been a neighbor that wants and expects the neighbors to come check it out because this is almost the only way to generate word of mouth "advertising". Neighbors come check the house out and there is a chance the neighbor will pass along the prospect to their friends or relatives who are in the market for houses.

Also, as a homeowner/potential homeseller, it is worthwhile checking out the homes selling in your neighborhood because house values will affect your own house value and thus property taxes. One's neighbors selling houses in your neighborhood affects one's own pocket book whether or not one is putting their home on the market.

So everyone in the product chain gets their money, and I get my product. The seller who I didn't buy the product from loses his cut from the chain because he wasn't (cheap /helpful/providing enough ancillary services - choose one) - this is called a free market economy.

Where does ethics fit into this?

If you want to browse, go browse where there is a retailer that is cheap/helpful/provising enough ancillary services. If you going to buy online, there is very good chance you won't be telling you friends to go shop at the retailer, but are telling them to shop online. The shopkeeper is not getting even potential word of mouth advertising from you.

Besides, from your example, everyone in the product chain didn't get their money from your purchase. The storeowner, whose products you went and handled, didn't get his cut. The publisher isn't paying the storeowner to display his books. The storeowner got nothing and he is well within your "product chain".

The ethics is the intentional deceit towards the storeowner. You know the storeowner is hoping for your business, and as such puts the product he owns out for his potential customers to examine. Coming in knowing ahead of time you will never be a potential customer is what I'm talking about.

In economic terms you are a free rider , you are free riding on the back of the storekeeper and his or her paying customers. You are getting something for nothing. You are using the services put out for paying customers intending to never pay for them.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Service certainly factors in to any buying decision, but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it. To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.

Haven't said anything remotely close to implying business shouldn't try to account for wear and tear. Haven't even tried to paint the "market actions" as having any ethics at all. I have and do label the individual people who have no other purpose to shopowners than inflicting "wear and tear" on shopowners as unethical though.

 

[TheYeti1775]

On the Car Test Drive for fun.
Yup do it once a year for my birthday.
I dress up in a casual suit and go car 'shopping', I've test drove many cars over the years. Actually went back a few months later to one of the dealerships, because I had a very good experience in my bit of fun. Though I did make sure to get the same salesman as before, part of that karma thing. Had me setup exactly what I wanted too.
So even having fun I gauged a place if I wanted to ever do business there.
So according to you every year I waste several dealerships days when I walk into them. It paid off for one of them a few months later. Though you are right word of mouth I did reccommend a couple of them to friends.

On the 'Window shopping', are all your products in the store window? If not, then guess what they can't see the item to so call 'window shop'. If you think they shouldn't do that, charge admission to your store and see how quickily you go under.
You call them "Free-Riders" when the term doesn't apply properly. We've already payed to get to your store. Your in the Sales business, we are in the buying business. Your bottom line is to make a dollar ours is to spend as little as possible. It is a free market and you have to have something that 1. will bring people into the store, and 2. get them to part with their money. Failing that, you will go under as a shop.
Also, how many of those crying Free-Rider have been in the mall and cruised through the Spencer's Gift store just because it was cool without the intention of buying anything? Cast no stone..... (ring a bell)

For you owners paying attention to this thread, unless you are in your store from opening to closing, try this. Get a secret shopper check your employees and how they hanlde things. The majority of the complaints past price here is customer service related. This is the one area the brick and mortar can win hands down if they only try at it.

With a hobby as small as ours, the LGS needs something that sets them above the online retailer.

Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So, if you are in a china shop that posts a sign "Break it - you buy it, " and you break an items accidentally, do you pay for it?

Yes.

I wonder if they ever figured out the cost of doing so versus their savings from not depreciating products? "World Famous" does not a good accountant/businessman necessarily make.

Yes. Ed's been in the biz longer than I've been alive, and figured out that the $5000 hit he was taking on some of the high end guitars getting labeled as "used" was too much. Since adopting that policy, he gets sight-unseen orders from around the world, because people know that the guitar they get from Ed is going to be in pristine condition.

Test drives create wear and tear. Who pays for that?... but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it. To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.

Every person who buys a car at that dealership pays for wear and tear. Its distributed among all buyers as a part of the dealer's overhead, along with salaries, physical plant, insurance, heating/cooling, utilities, theft, etc., which is reflected in higher base prices. Eventually, the test vehicle is sold as a program car at a greatly lowered price.

But what we're talking about ISN'T a test drive. On a test drive, there's the possibility that the driver may buy the vehicle at the location of the test.

What we're talking about is:

1) Consumer A hears about Product A, and decides if he's going to buy it, he is going to buy Product A at Retailer A.
2) Before buying Product A, Consumer A goes to Retailer B to examine Product A already knowing that Product A will be bought elsewhere.
3) By doing so, Consumer A raises Retailer B's costs in relation to Retailer A, and Retailer B cannot recover that cost from anyone else except Consumers B+ C + whomever.

LGS's DO account for that cost, and Online retailers don't have to, and it is driving LGS owners nuts. Online retailers suffer NO wear & tear on their product due to browsing- virtually their entire W&T is shifted to the LGS's bottom line-and the consumers complain that the LGS's aren't matching the online retailers' prices.

Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.

That IS a good question. Here are some (not definitive or exhaustive) answers:

1) It still results in a higher price for the LGS.

2) If the online retailer IS a predatory pricer, they can drop their prices indefinitely, and the cycle can continue until the RPG publisher declares bankruptcy. Most online retailers are NOT after the millions in the business of selling games. They are trying to reach, and eventually monopolize, the OTHER products for which gamers are the core target market- the multi-billion dollar scifi/fantasy/superhero movie/book/tv/game products. The RPGs can be sold at a loss if it gets the gamers to the website to buy "Mighty DragonballZ X-Men vs Alien Predators 2: the video game and DVD box set" at $100/pop.

3) Like any retailer, the online retailer can refuse to sell to a particular customer, especially a competitor- here, the LGS.

4) Timing. The online guys would ALWAYS have the product first, and being first counts for a lot in business.