Why I refuse to support my FLGS

[GlassJaw]

I have a great gamestore and for several reasons:

1.) Large, well-run gameroom. The store is clean and they only allow bathing customers to spend time in the gameroom.
2.) D&D Dinners: The gamestore hosts a dinner after hours once a month just for gamers. We can to socialize, hang out, tell stories and they stay late for us!
3.) 20% discount on pre-orders and we do not have to pay shipping and will receive it at the release date.
4.) Owned and run by hot women who wear mini-skirts.
5.) They ask gamers what books, dice, and minis they'd like to see in the store.

These are some great ideas and I would definitely frequent this store. Unfortunately, very few are this good.

Good call on cleanliness. Since they expect people to spend a good amount of time at their store to game, would it kill these places to hire a professional cleaner to give their stores a once-over? I'd rather not discuss LGS bathrooms either....

I don't live at the dump so why would I want to game at one?

 

[Belen]

To get me to support my LGS, they would have to approach (not match) the prices I could get at bn.com. Take DMG2. I never viewed it as a $40 book. BN.com had it at $27, so that's what it was, in my mind. I'd have paid $32, maybe $35, for the convenience of picking it up "on-demand" and the intangibles I could get from the LGS. But I won't pay $40. That's above the value I place on having the LGS. Two days isn't a big deal to wait. Heck, considering I just received my DMG2 on Tuesday, apparently almost a month isn't worth the $13.

No. The actual price of the book is $40. You may pay less on bn.com, but only until they have run their competition into the ground. Then you will have the luxury of paying $40 plus shipping.

WOTC has started releasing books to chains late because they recognize that gamestores drive sales. The stores breed new consumers for them. This is the entire point of their Delegate program. Use the stores to build a customer base and make sure that they are happy with WOTC.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Amazon is the reason that WOTC now sells 160 page books for the price of the 192 page books. Paper, while expensive, has not risen that much in the last few years. So keep buying from Amazon. You're only going to continue to increase the price of books.

Gamestores reinforce gamers. They are a melting pot of ideas, a place to find new games, and discuss the hobby with others. Gamestores make gamers. Without them, we will see an end to the largest influx of new gamers to our hobby, until the current generations are all that remains.

This is Bull.

Gamestores don't reinforce gamers. Gamers Reinforce Gamers.
Gamestores don't make Gamers. Games and other GAMERS make gamers.

I started playing D&D back in 1982 or 83 and didnt step foot inside an actual gamestore until 1986-87. Everyone that I gamed with in that time I met at school or lived in my neighborhood.

Even now there are other places to meet gamers i.e. NerdNYC.com (an example because I'm in NYC) or any number of online groups. Even if you don't have a computer, if you really wanted to find gamers you could post in community centers, libraries & local schools to find players. Is it easier for some people to hang out at the local gamestore to pickup other gamers, of course. But personally I wouldnt. I'd be concerned that I'd run into the same kind of cynical/obsessive people that would scream at me for not supporting my local gamestore or that it's MY fault that WOTC raises the price of thier books because I buy from Amazon where it's CHEAPER.

Seriously, my LGS offers me NOTHING past the availabilty of product. Immediate availabilty is not enough to warrant me paying sometimes $10 more for something that I can wait and order from Amazon. I know for certain that there are times that I windup buying MORE off of Amazon because the prices are cheaper. And as for middle market publishers or whatever as long as they have PDF's available, I'd rather buy those becasue I know that they probably get more of my money that way than than through me buying from my LGS.

So if my LGS offered me something MORE than that availability then I'd consider frequenting them again. If the owner were even less of a jerk, I'd consider shopping there again. But I'm not going to start shopping there becasue a few message board talking heads start screaming about I should support becasue if you donnt it'd mean that YOU HELPED KILL OUR HOBBY. F**k that noise. Dont depend on gamestores to bring new people in, get off of the fricking computer and start teaching some 13-14 year olds THE GAME. I have a group of friends that I've been gaming off and on with for almost 15 years. But inbetween then I've introduced so many different people to RPG's and those were the gropus and people that meant the most to me. watching them GET IT, watching it CLICK and watching them have FUN with it. None of these people I met in a game store, I'm talking people as young a 12 and as old as 45. So yeah, ours is a niche hobby, but it's a hobby with the benfit of an ungodly amount of exposure in the media compared to other niche hobbies. I mention D&D to people and they at least know what the hell it is I'm talking about.

I've used D&D as a "gateway" to other games, like Top Secret, Marvel Superheores, Champions, Star Wars, GURPS, Mekton and Paranoia. I know cats that I introduced to gaming back in HS who never gamed again and I know d00ds who are still gaming to this day and are teaching thier kids to game. So all this garbage about the gamestore is the end all be all to getting new gamers is garbage. Youre taliking about inbreeding, I'm talkling about getting new blood. I've seen people walk into a gamestore thinking it was something else, look around, realize where they are and walk out. I've walked into gamestores and be assaulted with the stench of gamer funk and walked out. GAMERS are the end all be all to "introing" new gamers. Your Gamestore may be great and if it does what you need it to do for you then FANTASTIC, keep supporting it. But dont expect everybody's gamestore to be everything to everyone. It's up to guys like you and me to keep it moving.

 

[Belen]

This is Bull.

Gamestores don't reinforce gamers. Gamers Reinforce Gamers.
Gamestores don't make Gamers. Games and other GAMERS make gamers.

I started playing D&D back in 1982 or 83 and didnt step foot inside an actual gamestore until 1986-87. Everyone that I gamed with in that time I met at school or lived in my neighborhood.

Even now there are other places to meet gamers i.e. NerdNYC.com (an example because I'm in NYC) or any number of online groups. Even if you don't have a computer, if you really wanted to find gamers you could post in community centers, libraries & local schools to find players. Is it easier for some people to hang out at the local gamestore to pickup other gamers, of course. But personally I wouldnt. I'd be concerned that I'd run into the same kind of cynical/obsessive people that would scream at me for not supporting my local gamestore or that it's MY fault that WOTC raises the price of thier books because I buy from Amazon where it's CHEAPER.

No one is screaming here. You may want to believe that no consequences exist for letting gamestores die, but you'd be wrong, and I can guarantee that WOTC does not agree with you.

I have never seen a library, community center, or school run D&D events. I am sure that some may, but I will wager that most do not. Not to mention that these venues do not carry the supplies necessary to start gaming nor can you buy polyhedral dice at any Wal-Mart or bookstore that I have ever seen.

Chances are that a significant percentage of fresh blood will choose not to enter the hobby without some sort of venue that supports it. A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online. They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online. They will not find a sense of community online.

ENWorld is the exception, not the rule. For the most part, newbies do not find ENWorld, nor do they find RPGnet. They may find some friends in high school or college, but what happens to people once they are out of school and not meeting people so often any longer? The internet is not the place for a casual gamer. The net is the place that experienced gamers go to chat.

 

[Zaukrie]

This is a great discussion. For anyone that thinks price should be their only deciding point, you should try to find an issue of the Economist from 2004 that does economic research on hyper-efficient companies like WalMart. New research shows that this efficiency is likely to decrease our standard of living as our wages are driven lower. Of course, other economists disagree - buy if you are going to make claims like some on this board, you might want to be informed of both arguements.

As for the FLGS, I too am lucky enough to live in the Twin Cities, where there are numerous game shops. Service at some of the stores is very dependent on the employee present. I find Phoenix the least friendly to non-minis players. Dreamers is the nicest, but their selection of RPG materials is iffy. The Source, as Monte Cook described it last year, is probably the best gaming store in the US. It stocks nearly every printed gaming product their is, has board games and minis galore. The service is hit and miss. If you play DnD minis skirmish, we have such great support that we actually get 2 sites for pre-release events. If you think that hobby will grow by buying on-line or from one of the chains, I'm not sure what arguement I could use to convince you otherwise.

I support my FLGS (many of them) not as a charity, but because I believe in the long run, I am better off if there are more gamers, if there are more places to buy from, and if there are more games in print. I don't believe that Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble....care one iota about games and gamers. I don't believe for one minute that there will be more than a handful of gaming companies left, unless I buy from the FLGS. Do I think less of anyone that disagrees - no.

 

[Weyland]

I have never seen a library, community center, or school run D&D events. I am sure that some may, but I will wager that most do not. Not to mention that these venues do not carry the supplies necessary to start gaming nor can you buy polyhedral dice at any Wal-Mart or bookstore that I have ever seen.

Chances are that a significant percentage of fresh blood will choose not to enter the hobby without some sort of venue that supports it. A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online. They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online. They will not find a sense of community online.

Additionally (and I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm undercaffinated and could be wrong), you can't discount the ability to browse shelves and see what other games are out there. Sure, you can do it with Amazon, but it's not nearly as convenient. Plus, you have (at least in a good FLGS) someone behind the counter to ask for recommendations or ideas.

The browsing and human contact count for a lot in my book.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

So if my LGS offered me something MORE than that availability then I'd consider frequenting them again. If the owner were even less of a jerk, I'd consider shopping there again. But I'm not going to start shopping there becasue a few message board talking heads start screaming about I should support becasue if you donnt it'd mean that YOU HELPED KILL OUR HOBBY. F**k that noise.

OK, I have not read every post in this thread, but I don't think people are really advocating supporting a lousy business. I think the idea is that price is not the only factor to consider.

I like to support some local restaurants in my area. They have good food, great service and a nice atmosphere. I prefer them over the large chains like TGIFridays or Outback even though I might get more food at a lower price. I won't put up with a restaurant that has crappy service, lousy atmosphere or charges exhorbitant prices for ordinary food just because I want to support the local restaurants, but if the cost is only slightly more and other things are equal, I will chose the local place over the chain. A bonus in my mind is that it is much more likely a larger portion of my money will stay in the local economy, and that is a good thing.

 

[jgbrowning]

Untill I can browse a complete book online, I'll shop at a FLGS. Money is important, but when buying unknown material, I prefer to browse before purchasing.

This is, ironically enough, why I'm not a big PDF purchaser although I sell them. This also explains why my freebies (previews) are complete chapters from the larger work.

joe b.

 

[Mystery Man]

Additionally (and I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm undercaffinated and could be wrong), you can't discount the ability to browse shelves and see what other games are out there. Sure, you can do it with Amazon, but it's not nearly as convenient. Plus, you have (at least in a good FLGS) someone behind the counter to ask for recommendations or ideas.

The browsing and human contact count for a lot in my book.

What's to stop anyone from going to the FLGS and browsing then going and buying online for 10-15 dollars cheaper? If I was a gaming store owner I would get irritated with that practice. Most likely I'd get irritated with myself, because that's what I do unless I've gotta have it absolutely right now, which is rare.

 

[GlassJaw]

You may want to believe that no consequences exist for letting gamestores die, but you'd be wrong, and I can guarantee that WOTC does not agree with you.

Belen, you sound like you have a great FLGS but from my experience in dealing with LGS, I haven't seen any evidence that gaming stores support and grow the hobby. If I based my interest in the hobby on game stores alone, I would have been turned off long ago.

Friends and family introducing the game to others is what keeps the hobby going. I highly doubt there have been many people who have walked into a LGS because they were curious about the hobby. I'm not saying it hasn't happened but my guess is that a far greater number have been introduced to the hobby by someone they know.

I know it's wishful thinking but I would realy like to see some marketing data that details the sales and number of customers at LGS.

The internet is not the place for a casual gamer. The net is the place that experienced gamers go to chat.

I definitely disagree on this. Virtually all the people I've gamed with, both casual and serious, I've met via some kind of online source. I would agree that casual gamers don't post on EN World but they certainly make use of the internet to find other players.

Again Belen, I think your view is slightly skewed by the fact that you've had very good experience with gaming stores in the past. I certainly haven't and I've heard more negative comments about people's LGS than positive.