Why I refuse to support my FLGS

[woodelf]

Publishers would be able to stay in business if they could be reasonably confident that the direct sales, internet distributors and Borders sales could sustain them. They could lose it all on one title that the above didn't decide to buy.

Take the FLGSs out of the equation and you change everybody else's business model. That kind of change will destroy some of the smaller publishers at minimum and I suspect many of the larger ones as well.

Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form. Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?

 

[Mark Chance]

Personally, I think that buying something online is cheating.

Can't really cheat at shopping. Unless, of course, you're shoplifting. Otherwise, there really aren't any rules to break.

 

[Jim Hague]

Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form. Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?

The ignorance of the current distribution model in the above statement is just...wow. Really. Seriously, go do some research. Go to the Forge, go to RPG.Net and IPR. Talk to people in the hobby and industry. Educate yourself.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Saying that you should support a LGS simply because it is local, and small, is like a local shop putting a sign in the window saying “I have five sick children, please give me money”. That’s charity. Charity is fine, but it’s not business.

That's not the position being espoused by me...

I'm saying support the good LGS's because:

1) the lower prices from large online retailers are due to those retailers being able to get a better price than any LGS- and not by being meritorious businesses, but often by excercising market power to exact lower prices or by cross-subsidy (to points that may be illegal, aka predatory pricing). If you see a game available online for 50%LGS prices...and that price is the retailer's REGULAR price, its more likely that the retailer is screwing the supplier or its competition than it is that your LGS is screwing you. If you've read this whole thread, you've seen actual LGS owners point out that there are online retailers selling game product more cheaply than they can purchase it.

2) generally speaking, the large retailers have no emotional tie to the hobby- RPGs are just another commodity they could yank from the shelves in 24 hours if they became "unprofitable" or "unwelcome in the community," or even demand that "changes" be made. Wal-Mart does stuff like this routinely...Willie Nelson is being forced to change his cover art on the new album.

This would not be charity- it is "enlightened self-interest."

 

[Mark Chance]

If you see a game available online for 50%LGS prices...and that price is the retailer's REGULAR price, its more likely that the retailer is screwing the supplier or its competition....

But a larger entity, say everyone's second favorite whipping boy Amazon, has no moral obligation to ensure that small businesses remain viable. Likewise, neither do I. I don't mind helping out small businesses if it fits my desires, budget, et cetera, but that small business being outdone by a larger competitor isn't an example of a screwing. It's simply the way things almost always are when a small business faces a larger competitor.

generally speaking, the large retailers have no emotional tie to the hobby-

Not that I buy a lot of game stuff, since I already own everything I'll ever need and then some (and so really don't have a dog in this rather pointless fight), but what is the sticker price of an "emotional tie"?

 

[woodelf]

There always will be a business to serve their gaming needs. It just may not be a LGS, or it won't be one that fits the stereotype of your typical LGS. But the eventual evolution of the LGS is probably a whole nuther thread!

Now, personally, i think that RPGs won't die, at least not while this generation of gamers is alive. But that's not the same as saying that there will "always be a business to serve their gaming needs". That's just foolish talk--as in any luxury good. If the minimum production cost to produce the sort of RPG book that gamers wants rises to $30, and the average gamer is unwilling to pay more than $25 for such a book, no one will produce them. That is, of course, an extreme example, and we're not likely to ever get ther, but just taking it as a given that someone will always be willing to produce something at a price the market will bear--or conversely, that the market will always pay what it costs someone to produce something--is foolish. Given the number of people on this thread who're unwilling to pay $40 for a full-color hardcover ~250p book, i can see it coming to that.

See, absent the FLGS, the RPG industry doesn't die--it gets smaller and more specialized. Fewer outlets for sales mean fewer sales, mean lower production runs, mean higher costs (or lower quality, or both). We can look at existing indie RPGs to get an idea of what no-distributor, no-retailer, low-risk RPGs look like: ~$20+ for softcover, 6x9, 100pp, B&W, minimal illos. So, pay $40 now, or pay half as much for 20% of the wordcount, softcover, and no color, later. And most of these guys won't sell to Amazon, because of the discounting (not in price, but in what they're paid), so don't expect to get these books at a discount any more.

 

[rgard]

Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form. Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?

Sorry, I don't think you've done your homework on this one.

On a side note, I do think it would be funny if the folks buying their stuff on-line for the savings could succeed in convincing their internet distributor to let them run some gaming sessions in his or her warehouse!

Of course he or she may have a virtual warehouse and you may need to ask the distributor to let you run some sessions in his or her living room.

The only draw back is that if you did convince the distributor to host some game sessions...you may have to travel a couple hundred or couple thousand miles to get there.


Rich

 

[rgard]

I've said this before in other threads on the subject, but I wish some of the stores that seem to exist in the Midwest existed here in Los Angeles, the second biggest city in the United States!. I just don't get it.



If I were to call my local game store, assuming the guy that normally works there actually bothered to answer the phone, I can guarantee that his response would not be helpful.



Been shopping at this particular store since 3E came out in 1999/2000. There are three people I've seen work there. About 90% of the time I go, it's the same guy who has not once in five years greeted me by name (what am I talking about - he hasn't greeted me, period). His "gaming knowledge" extends to the current CCG fad of the moment, or whatever it is his little circle of friends are playing.



Not really an issue for me, as I game with a group of friends, and we gain new blood to our groups by having current people say, "Hey, I met this man/woman at work/school and he/she is interested in joining our group."



That would involve conversation with the guy working there, and he is apparently allergic to conversation.



Uh, try coming to LA sometime and go to Last Grenadier in Burbank and ask them for help with an RPG product. You will be scoffed at because you are not a wargamer. It's fun! I love it when geeks condescend to other geeks.

Seriously, there are four stores that I have patronized (Pasadena, Burbank, West Los Angeles, and Diamond Bar). Of the four, the only one I really like was All Star Games in Diamond Bar, but I hear from a friend that they are closing down, which sucks. I hadn't been there in awhile because it's a pretty far drive (all the way in, shudder, the "909), but back in College I was there at least once a week. The staff was super friendly, I swear they had played every single game they carried and could offer advice/comparisons on the products, it was clean, well-lit, vaccuumed, air conditioned, sans-"gamer funk", the whole thing. The only downside was that they shrink-wrapped their RPG stuff.

Brad and Rich, you two need to come down here to LA and do some kind of "extreme makeover" on the game stores down here. That could be a new kind of business!

Anyway, I've complained several times about the "unfriendly" aspect of my local game shop, and I find myself going there less and less. It's not an issue of price. It's not even an issue of convenience (obviously going there to pick up a book and have it right then is more convenient than ordering it online and having to wait a week for it to show up). It's more of a feeling that this store has hired staff who are not interested in helping me or my gamer friends. They are there to hog the gaming tables, eat pizza, and play CCGs with their friends. They treat it as an inconvenience when you walk up to the counter to buy product. They do not get up out of their seat to help you find something, but rather wave their arm in the vague direction of where the product might be, if they have it in stock.

So why would I want to shop there?

Sorry to hear about them. I would love to do a make-over for them (wouldn't that be the niche profession of niche professions?...game store makeovers), but I probably need to focus on getting mine into profitability first.

All the negative and positive reviews of game store staff has started me thinking about what type of person I should hire when I get to the point of hiring.

This discussion is helping me.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[pogre]

Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form. Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?

Take it from someone familiar intimately with the small publishers - you've missed the mark badly here.

edit: should have read a bit further - I see others have taken you to task for these statements. My apology for the dogpile.

 

[woodelf]

The ignorance of the current distribution model in the above statement is just...wow. Really. Seriously, go do some research. Go to the Forge, go to RPG.Net and IPR. Talk to people in the hobby and industry. Educate yourself.

v. 2
I'm plenty educated--i've spent extensive time learning from all those places you site, and then some.

So somebody please educate me. As i understand it, the standard three-tier distribution model is 60% discount to the distributor, 40% discount to the retailer. Further, i know for a fact that a fair number of indie RPGs have specifically eschewed distribution because their costs are higher and tehy are either unable or unwilling to take the cut that distribution requires. [I'm not naming names only because i don't know for which of them this is a publicly-stated position; they may not want to alienate distributors, in case they change their mind in the future.] It is also a fact that the indie-press RPGs are, generally, done in much smaller print runs and have much higher prices coupled with lower production values than those who run through the three-tier system. Compare Dogs in the Vineyard ar Wyrd is Bond to Werewolf: the Forsaken or Spycraft.

So, where'd i go wrong? If none of those facts are wrong, in what way are my conclusions disjoint from them? A bunch of people saying "you're wrong", but not providing any corrections, isn't very helpful.